Sonar Questions (thinking of moving from Cubase)

[fgimian]

I was trying Sonar last night. I am currently using Cubase SL3 and was considering a move to the Cakewalk side (mainly due to Cubase bugs / performance problems / dongle). I could never really get to grips with Sonar so I worked slowly with it and tried to note what annoyed me. Please let me know if any of the following things can be altered please....

Unanswered

1. Suppose I create 30 channels, I open the mixer and am working on channel 29. When I close the mixer and re-open it, it scrolls back to channel 1.
2. ReWire routing is not very flexible (doesn't allow grouping of 2 mono channels to create a stereo one). So if for example, I want channels 5 & 6 to be a stereo pair, I must use a group to do that in Sonar (this was also a shortcoming of Cubase but I thought Sonar would have this feature).
3. Why are audio channels minimised when I create them ?
4. When I maximise a newly created channel, why is it so large ?
6. Why are plugin GUIs resizable ? The program allows you to resize the GUI to the point where no text an be seen or where part of the GUI can't be seen. Cubase always uses the fixed window size of the plugin which is much more logical to me.
8. I have Nero 6 installed and see a few Nero DX plugins which I don't want available, is there any way to disable these ? The plugin actually loads but does nothing and I don't want it to be viewable in my mixer.
9. How do I manage my audio without an audio pool in Sonar ? This is a huge feature that I use daily, especially when moving audio from one project to another, everything is properly named and easy to access.

Answered

5. Is it really true that there is no native VST support ? Is everything wrapped as a DX plugin ? (thanks Doug)
7. Is it true that I will have to rename each of my Voxengo plugins when they are wrapped so that I can group them into 1 folder ? (thanks Doug)

Thank you for your help, I would REALLY love to learn Sonar because of features like V-Vocal and the excellent support you folks get. Also the audio engine is way smoother than Cubase, no dropouts when you perform minor actions which is a HUGE advantage.

Cheers
Fots

[dougsyo]

For the plugin issues, you'll find that Cakewalk's plugin manager and WhyteRabbyt's SubSonar are your friends.

Doug

[bduffy]

Most of those are mysteries to me too. I know that you can nix Nero + unwanted DX plugs by using Sonar's plug-in manager, under "Tools", I believe.

[orangenut]

soundpalace - could you include the answers too please (when you find them of course)

[fgimian]

lol ! I thought it was only me who noticed these things ... Also thanks bduffy for your input on the Nero thingy

Cheers
Fots

[bduffy]

lol ! I thought it was only me who noticed these things ... Also thanks bduffy for your input on the Nero thingy

Cheers
Fots

No problem. Curious, though: what's bothering you so much about Cubase SL that you have to switch? (Just asking as a biased Cubase fan-boy)

[fgimian]

well actually I love Cubase. The main things that annoy me with Cubase at the moment are...

- I'm noticing dropouts, my system is well tweaked and I'm running an Echo Layla3G PCI audio card. at 6ms latency
- CPU usage is all jumpy, not very smooth, I get quite a few spikes.
- I notice CPU spikes when simply using the GUI, like browsing the mixer .etc. This happens with large projects.
- I dislike the dongle who doesn't ...
- Theres a bug that got added in 3.1 that always scrolls to the first track when u open the mixer. Working on a huge project now and am pretty fed up with it but can't go back to 3.02 coz i need some specific 3.1 features.
- I kinda dislike how Steinberg work ... they release buggy software then ask you to pay for updates before the software is even fully repaired.

Honestly, I love Cubase, the workflow is excellent, I was just loosely looking at the competition I Guess because I'm just a little annoyed about all the problems I'm having.

I'm going to format this weekend and try again from scratch.

I also kinda like trying new things, so far I've tried...

Ableton / Tracktion: I find these way too limiting and dislike the GUIs.
Sonar: As discussed above.
ext: No ReWire .. too fiddly for a day to day sequencer.
Podium / n-track: Not my kinda workflow, n-track crashed on me within 5 minutes of trying it.
FL Studio: Not suited for audio work I found.
ProTools LE (I had an mbox a while back): Couldn't get a decent latency coz of the USB. Not a bad sequencer tho.

Nothing touches Cubase yet I believe, except Protools maybe ... but then Protools doesn't do MIDI like Cubase which is it's downfall. So overall Cubase is THE sequencer in my opinion, I was just curious to try out Sonar since so many people seem to be using it.

Any ideas on the points I've mentioned bduffy ?

Details
Cubase SL 3.11, Reason 3.04
Kjaerhus Classic, Kjaerhus Gold & Voxengo plugins
Echo Layla3G
Line6 GuitarPort (using a separate PCI-> USB card)
Pentium D 3.0 GHz 955X chipset motherboard (Gigabyte)
2 GB Kingmax RAM
200 GB SATA main drive
200 GB IDE audio drive
ATI X550 video card
Powered USB hub for the dongle.

Cheers
Fots

[bduffy]

well actually I love Cubase. The main things that annoy me with Cubase at the moment are...

- I'm noticing dropouts, my system is well tweaked and I'm running an Echo Layla3G PCI audio card. at 6ms latency
- CPU usage is all jumpy, not very smooth, I get quite a few spikes.
- I notice CPU spikes when simply using the GUI, like browsing the mixer .etc. This happens with large projects.
- I dislike the dongle who doesn't ...
- Theres a bug that got added in 3.1 that always scrolls to the first track when u open the mixer. Working on a huge project now and am pretty fed up with it but can't go back to 3.02 coz i need some specific 3.1 features.
- I kinda dislike how Steinberg work ... they release buggy software then ask you to pay for updates before the software is even fully repaired.

Honestly, I love Cubase, the workflow is excellent, I was just loosely looking at the competition I Guess because I'm just a little annoyed about all the problems I'm having.

I'm going to format this weekend and try again from scratch.

Truth is, I like trying new things, I've tried...

Ableton / Tracktion: I find these way too limiting and dislike the GUIs.
Sonar: As discussed above.
ext: No ReWire .. too fiddly for a day to day sequencer.
Podium / n-track: Not my kinda workflow, n-track crashed on me within 5 minutes of trying it.
FL Studio: Not suited for audio work I found.
ProTools LE (I had an mbox a while back): Couldn't get a decent latency coz of the USB. Not a bad sequencer tho.

Nothing touches Cubase yet I believe, except Protools maybe ... but then Protools doesn't do MIDI like Cubase which is it's downfall. So overall Cubase is THE sequencer in my opinion, I was just curious to try out Sonar since so many people seem to be using it.

Any ideas on the points I've mentioned bduffy ?

Cheers
Fots

Well...let's see....

First off, I've had nothing but problems with Echo cards. My experiences are with older models (MIA and Darla24), but I find that they just have these wafer-thin ASIO drivers that just can't take any kind of normal stress - like, 5 times pickier than any reasonable card! I had to switch to ASIO4ALL just to use either of those cards without regular dropouts, and they have never been stable with those drivers either. I just replaced my MIA with an E-MU 1212m, and it's like night and day. Projects that wouldn't even play back with the Echo are coasting along with the E-MU and I can keep loading plug-ins into "the red".

So, from my perspective, I'd suggest ditching the Echo. But it could just be a system thing! There is something affecting my latency at home, and I haven't quite figured it out. I'd love to reformat, but it's not an option right now. You should try it, maybe you're defragged in some hard-to-notice way or something.

As for other sequencers, well, I agree with you. Sonar is my second favourite (because I started w/Cakewalk), but feels so awkward now. Everything else just feels wrong. Cubase just feels like a big mixing console to me, and nothing else gives me that. I used to use about 4 different apps to make music, now I just use Cubase, pretty much. But we all know it's what you're used to.

So, yeah...I guess if there is any way you can try another sound card - even a Sound Blaster with Kx Drivers or something - try that. I suspect that Echo are better at making A/D converters than ASIO drivers.

[fgimian]

damn, that's such a shame bduffy. If I ditch the Echo, I think I'll have quite a bit of trouble selling it :S So I guess I'll try ASIO4All and my Audigy and compare. I honestly never knew how bad the Echo's were because a few years ago they were the bees knees of soundcards.

Apart from the EMU are there any others that you can recommend ? I can't quite afford RME, I hear Motu drivers are bad. How are the Presonus cards to your knowledge ?

Thanks a lot
Fots

[bduffy]

damn, that's such a shame bduffy. If I ditch the Echo, I think I'll have quite a bit of trouble selling it :S So I guess I'll try ASIO4All and my Audigy and compare. I honestly never knew how bad the Echo's were because a few years ago they were the bees knees of soundcards.

Apart from the EMU are there any others that you can recommend ? I can't quite afford RME, I hear Motu drivers are bad. How are the Presonus cards to your knowledge ?

Thanks a lot
Fots

I should be clear: I tend to be a little alone in my hatred of Echo. Most people really like them, but I've had nothing but pain with them. So you weren't missing anything; they are well-liked. For some reason.

Definitely try the optional drivers/Audigy. Please let me know if you experience a difference, I'm most curious now...seriously: the Echo made me miss my old Audigy 1!

The E-MU cards are just incredible for the price and the latest drivers are getting rave reviews. Apart from that, the usual next option is the M-Audio Audiophile, and the guy at the music store was recommending me the Presonus - but I have no experience per se. Believe it or not, the most stable cards I've ever used are Creative Labs'. I guess they just know PCs!

I'm sure someone else will be along shortly to recommend something. Let me know how it goes!

[fgimian]

Well, I used to use an Audigy too and I gotta admit that the ASIO drivers were SOLID ! like a bloody rock ! lol I had way less hassles with it, then I bought a Digidesign Mbox .... BIG MISTAKE !! hahaha dont touch USB mate, trust me.

So sold that and looked around thouroughly and got the Echo, and yep, as soon as I started using it I noticed the drivers were "thinner" (good word to describe it), but I thought that it was coz I have so many ins / outs on the card. The only reason I didn't look at the EMUs was because it took EMU several years to release XP drivers for their APS card but they seem to really be picking up their game with the new stuff.

I'll try the things we mentioned when I get home and let ya know.

Once again, thanks it is appreciated. I also posted a topic in the hardware section of Cubase.net to get opinions on the Echo cards.

Does anyone else also have anymore thoughts on this soundcard question ?

Cheerios
Fots

[hoffy]

well.... if you like Pro Tools, you could grab an Audiophile and run a cheaper version of Pro Tools, without the restrictions of USB...

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you are. I love Cubase, but I am really keen to see what else is out there because Steinberg shit me- There were features in v2 (such as the Freeze function) that never actually worked adequately before v3 was announced, and i'm quite alarmed at how bloated the software is apparently becoming. I prefer mixing and editing audio in Pro Tools, so i'm using the M-Powered version with my Audiophile, and all I use Cubase for is composing with MIDI and VST's, and occasionally post-production work. I am looking for an alternative to Cubase; I just want something with a similar workflow- and preferably something that supports OMF

[fgimian]

ye mate, totally know what you mean. Truth is that if Steinberg managed their product better, I have no doubt that Cubase & Nuendo could be the new ProTools ... but at the rate we are going ... its not gonna happen.

So you run an M-Audio interface too do you ? How do M-Audio drivers compare to EMU ? I had thought about getting myself a 1010 but it would mean having to buy separate preamps. M-Audio drivers have always been well regarded, are they really as good as people say ?

I'm still at work .. so i'll try the things we talked about in about 4 hours when I get home. I'm so dissapointed really ... the card id still under warranty too, but doubt they will take it back after I have had it for almost 8 months.

Thanks for your help
fots

[bduffy]

ye mate, totally know what you mean. Truth is that if Steinberg managed their product better, I have no doubt that Cubase & Nuendo could be the new ProTools ... but at the rate we are going ... its not gonna happen.

So you run an M-Audio interface too do you ? How do M-Audio drivers compare to EMU ? I had thought about getting myself a 1010 but it would mean having to buy separate preamps. M-Audio drivers have always been well regarded, are they really as good as people say ?

I'm still at work .. so i'll try the things we talked about in about 4 hours when I get home. I'm so dissapointed really ... the card id still under warranty too, but doubt they will take it back after I have had it for almost 8 months.

Thanks for your help
fots

EDIT: I didn't notice Hoffy's post, thought you were talking to me.

Jeez...I dunno, I'm a warranty wimp. I never return anything, I'm a corporation's dream. You could maybe email them - but try to determine if it's your system. I have the luxury of having tried Echo cards on three different computers and they all exhibit the same behaviour, so the deal was sealed for me.

But with PC's, it's hard to tell what the problem is. I wish they'd make an Audio-only OS...oh wait, they did! and they got driven out of business by Microsoft...but that's another tale!

Keep me posted.

[arke]

Sorry for stealing the thread, but...

I got to try Sonar5 the other day which I absolutely loved, except for the piano roll. Is there a way to turn off auto-following? That would seal the deal for me! (and mean that I'd have to save up even more money).