INSANE!! FL Academic Version Price Increase

[pj geerlings]

And you behave condescendingly towards others ...

Nope - just you

[Hink]

Hink

First let me say I respect your point of view with regard to honesty and stealing.
With that said, perhaps you could make something clear to me. Are you saying that under no circumstances would you either contemplate or engage in dishonesty or stealing. Also are you saying that it has always been this way for you.

kevmo

The first one I would like to say yes, and ideally it is yes...but who knows what extreme conditions that could come along (like Katrina and some looting for food and some looting for profit).

As for the second absolutely not, I'm not a saint...I made my mistakes, I have spun a tale or two to get out of a bind. Lived beyond my means when I was young and got in trouble with credit. But when it comes to stealing? My late sister who my mother would cannonize if she could got arrested in Boston when she was about 13 or 14 for shoplifting. I remember the way my father looked at her and even though I have always lived under her shadow (in life and after her death) I swore I would never hurt him like that...I was 11 or 12 then and it made a big impact on me, quite frankly I am afraid to steal.

The key is learning from your mistakes and not trying to justify them. When you err you step up and admit it, not look for loopholes...

[rbet]

I'll call you Saint Hink the Honest now

[Reverse Engineer]

I'll call you Saint Hink the Honest now

He's gonna hunt me down......i confessed to stealing mp3's in another topic But lets just call mp3's "prints" or "photographs" and the actual cd's "paintings"

[Ildon]

gol has said in a recent thread that he has met many people who used warezed copies of FL - he didn't seem overly mad about it. there once was a survey over at looptalk, too, where they asked whether one had used a cracked copy prior to purchasing a license of FL. thinking of hink's suggestion that one notify developer's of using a cracked copy - actually that's something i would have loved to do when i used cracked software and be it only to give the developers some feedback and praise, when i couldn't afford to give monetary reward for their efforts.

they said they wouldn't crack down on us if we pleaded guilty, so i was honest and admitted to having used FL for over a year before finally purchasing a license.

Good point. All this talk about morality and honesty is fine and good, but when it comes down to it, the developers' opinions about it are what really matters. If you use warez... well... be prepared to take responsibility for your actions if the developers care enough to track you down and prosecute you. It seems to me that there're enough honest people out there who buy the software, though.

[Hink]

although one has to be careful not to see mistakes, where there aren't any, which can happen with regional differences in spelling - e.g. offence as opposed to offense.

gol has said in a recent thread that he has met many people who used warezed copies of FL - he didn't seem overly mad about it. there once was a survey over at looptalk, too, where they asked whether one had used a cracked copy prior to purchasing a license of FL. thinking of hink's suggestion that one notify developer's of using a cracked copy - actually that's something i would have loved to do when i used cracked software and be it only to give the developers some feedback and praise, when i couldn't afford to give monetary reward for their efforts.

they said they wouldn't crack down on us if we pleaded guilty, so i was honest and admitted to having used FL for over a year before finally purchasing a license.

I agree and I will say that if people did notify the cumpany perhaps they would address demo issues in the future...I wonder though how much of gol's response is based on how FL was doing at the time...it's easier to forgive the cracked users when you're making sales hand over fist...I wonder if he would feel the same way if IL was to meet with finacial problems (not saying they will)...if the money were to run out I think he might be more critical.

Last season the Red Sox had an identical record to the Yankees, but due to a technicality the Yankees were the American League east champs. No doubt during the early part of the season more the once it was said after a loss "well it's a long season and it's early, so it's not that big a deal"...but as it turned out if they had of won one of those early games instead it would of made a huge difference at the end of the season...

Edit...it was a spelling mistake...but I'm leaving cumpany because it's funny...

[play]

I think most companies exploit employees and do not care enough to even be dishonest about it.

We're making quite some progress here. So you're saying that dishonesty is one morally flawed form of behaviour end exploitation is another. This seems about right to me and it's probably a useful distinction. The difference between the two is that exploitation is legal while dishonesty in the above sense isn't.

I just happen to think that accepting the exploitation weakens the moral position of those critizing dishonesty. Again, that is not to rationalize dishonesty but to attack exploitation. If you're happy with the way the legal system is set up in this regard, then we can agree to disagree.

There is another macroeconomic aspect though which has to do with the overall justice of the mode of allocation. In a market society money is used to exchange goods and services, both of which are finite and ideally correspond to the effort, someone puts into creating/offering them. Owning something which can be multiplied without additional cost and the revenues of which can in return buy goods and services posed the question on how this is supposed to be fair.

To give an example: If I fix 10 shoes a day as a shoemaker I can afford to have a cleaning women clean my home once a month. Now, if I wanted to have her clean my home once a week, I'd have to work four times as much myself in order to be able to afford it. And that seems at least fair (albeit still f**ked up in many ways) to me. If I sell software though, all I need to do is sell, say, four times more items. I don't have to work four times as hard. And that seems flawed somehow, considering that people are in vastly different positions to even think of doing something like selling software. And it gets even worse when you factor in the ability to control other resources.

The ultimate example would be Bill Gates. He has money to have hundreds of thousands of cleaning women clean his home 24 hours a day for the rest of his life. Do you think he put in anything remotely equivalent to the effort these cleaning women put in? It's impossible. Instead, he sold software. I personally can't see the fairness in this deal - even if it has been perfectly legal all the way.

[fabi]

i hope they'll be doing fine. looking forward to FL6, too, although in the meantime eXT has had great appeal in areas where FL didn't excel.

take it or leave it, but without the cracked copies around i wouldn't have ended up buying FL and consequently would have given up on computer music - meaning a lot of other developers would not have seen any of my money, praise and bug reports.

[play]

And you behave condescendingly towards others ...

Nope - just you

Where? " "

[herodotus]

In fact quite boldly stated (and I'll duck), I think many younger people starting in music today are very spoiled and less then grateful or appreciative. You can buy FL producer for 150 bux, in the past you couldn't even whistle a tune into a recorder for that, never mind all the synths that are free out there that can be used in FL.

So true. Almost eloquent, even.

[Ildon]

The key is learning from your mistakes and not trying to justify them. When you err you step up and admit it, not look for loopholes...

Also a good point. I'm not going to go much further into this, but that's what seems to've happened with a lot of us here.

[Reverse Engineer]

The key is learning from your mistakes and not trying to justify them. When you err you step up and admit it, not look for loopholes...

Also a good point. I'm not going to go much further into this, but that's what seems to've happened with a lot of us here.

Basically what Hink is saying is thus - You can't learn anything without making mistakes........warez on people

J/k of course........jesus didn't make mistakes, nor use warez.

[Hink]

Play, I'm not accepting exploitation, Im stating the two are different. Both are wrong and I fought that battle against exploitation long enough. I'm free from that world....however let's put the cards on the table here...if you want to talk about exploitation, forget factories, software...what of the exploitation the music industry is guilty of everyday. How many of the 70,000 plus here at KVR if offered the pen wouldn't sign on the dotted line?...face it, in that instance there are many here who would jump at the chance to be exploited...we still have choices...we don't have to sign...

[Ildon]

The key is learning from your mistakes and not trying to justify them. When you err you step up and admit it, not look for loopholes...

Also a good point. I'm not going to go much further into this, but that's what seems to've happened with a lot of us here.

Basically what Hink is saying is thus - You can't learn anything without making mistakes........warez on people

J/k of course........jesus didn't make mistakes, nor use warez.

What? I know what he was saying, I was agreeing with him.

Anyway, we all have different values. Like I said before, I don't care if someone else does something and I try not to judge them. I can understand why someone would do something like that in specific cases, but that doesn't mean I do it myself or totally agree with it, and it's not up to me to say "that's bad for you, don't do that." So long as they know they can get in trouble and are prepared for it, to each his own.

I probably still didn't get across what I've been trying to say this entire thread. I always have so much trouble expressing my thoughts on this subject.

Just for the record: I'm not a warez supporter and I do not use warez (why would I? It'd just complicate things more). I've learned my lesson. I can still understand why people would use them as a last resort in certain cases, but even in those cases, I could never handle the guilt. It felt so dirty and just... ugh. That's just how I choose to live and I try not to push that on someone else. Sometimes I fail, though.

Yay for long winded self-absorbed posts that make no sense.

[kevmo]

Hink

with regard to your reply concerning the dishonesty thing, thank god you are normal, I generaly find it difficult to take seriously people who believe that they are truly honest. I believe you can try to be honest but that its a mistake to think you you will actually get there. Maybe its easier to be honest with the little things but it seems that as the issues get bigger or there is more invested in them then the more malleable honesty becomes. I think that it is an inate part of the human condition to adjust honesty to the circumstances. Think of a situation where we might lie to protect a family member for example. In fact there are circumstances such as this where society generaly might even expect us to lie and be suspicious of us if we did not.


So is it the case with stealing that you are saying that you would find it more difficult to steal than not to steal. The reason I ask is that, if this is the case and you ally that with what you said earlier "those who have the willpower, and personal power not to steal" it seems as though it would be more the case that actually stealing would be the real exercise in willpower for you. Now perhaps there's a challenge for the new year (big wink).


kevmo