Does the samples business is going well?

[G-Ro124]

I personally own one set of loop libraries: the Sony Sound Effects Series, which is both useful and not. In that case, a loop library is useful, as you cannot synthesize a human fart. I do not think that real life sound effects can ever be replaced by a synth (no shit).

What I think is an interesting topic of debate is whether SoundFonts and presets count as semi-loops. In the end, many of us do not program our own sounds: we use presets that we find from the Internet and given with the software.

In the case of SoundFonts, then I believe that they are kind of loops, as it is giving you the sound you need, but all you do is decide the MIDI sequence of how to put it.

In presets, it is almost the same thing, except that you can change something you don't like and use the preset as a backbone for building your own sound.

Anyway, returning back to loop companies. There are a lot of beginners and novices to the pro audio business who are the main buyers in the loop CD industry. Most are teenagers who begin by downloading a keygenerator and ACID; needing loops, they buy CDs. If they have a Mac, then GarageBand will suffice up to a point.

Soon, they switch to more complex software such as FL, Reason, Logic, Cubase, or SONAR. When that happens, the need for loops falls, and THAT is what I think that the loop industry is missing. They should make HUGE banks of presets and SoundFonts, then have 10% of their business be loop CDs.

[sonicfire]

Have i said that i love soundfonts?

[tee boy]

Sonicfire,

I have listened to your demos for both your ambient and drum libraries. The do sound very nice, and are undoubtably good quality. But I think that a library needs to be more than that (especially these days!). The sounds need to jump out at you, and make you feel that you could never get anything similar, ANYWHERE else. Imo, your demos lacked that quality.

Distorted Reality has sounds that I dont think I could reproduce. Alot of the DR1 and 2 sounds arent so difficult to figure out, but reproducing them is very difficult. Eric Persing is a master sound designer, and this shows in his work. As a result, I see both those libraries as being absolutely indispensible. BT's sample libraries are a similar example - they are extremely high quality, but also unique and very usable. Many of those sounds I wouldnt be able to reproduce faithfully.

On the other hand, listening to your demos, I dont here much that I couldnt reproduce. And this is where it lacks appeal as a hi end product.

Sorry for the brutal straight talking, but Im sure you'd rather hear what your market REALLY thinks. In a nutshell - good quality, nothing to differentiate, hence not worth the cost to purchase.

My advice would be to drop the price to a level where 'impulse purchase' would become applicable. Then get back to the drawing board, and consider devising some design techniques that would result in highly unique and usable sounds. Not an easy task admittedly! But then again, DR2 took over two years to make, and I would wager that much of that time was spent of technical development and research.

[sonicfire]

$199 for 700MB!

Okay! Spacehawk - Volume Two will beat Distorted Reality!

[zircon]

sonicfire, MB isn't everything. Eric really is an absolutely world-class sound designer. He's used to developing for hardware; he can pack more sounds, and BETTER sounds, per MB than just about any software developer. It's hard to compete with him.

[Shane Sanders]

I have to say that it's really a lot of work to create/find good sounds, tweak them, top & tail them, and then figure out what is going to work together as a 'team'. But I think one has to strike a balance between all that work and what the market will bear, regardless of how one feels about the long process leading to a product. My products are impulse buys, and they are cheap enough that even if you only get one or two killer passages of music out of them, you still win. And if you get more than that, then you really win. It all comes down to the artist and how they take a sound into a new place. Everybody has access to a killer snare these days. But not everyone can write the perfect fill with it.

Once you have been making music for a while, you start to realize what's in your power, what's more or less useful to you yet boring to make for yourself, etc. So you see a product and you think, I could probably make all this myself. But it would take 3 days of doing nothing but that and I just want to compose right now. So you buy some samples. That's how it has always worked for me, except for when I buy exotic percussion or ethnic things that there's no way I could even get my hands on the instrument let alone record it authentically.

[original flipper]

HI

Wasn't that long ago that you could download (for free) an entire 6 Volume multi-gig set of AKAI library from their server - how can anyone compete with that!

Flipper.

[tee boy]

$199 for 700MB!

Okay! Spacehawk - Volume Two will beat Distorted Reality!

Sonicfire,

Lets not beat around the bush - this isnt about price, its about the sounds. I would buy DR1 and 2 becuase I love the sounds. I wouldnt buy your product, because the sounds dont inspire me in anyway. So when it comes down to it, the price is pretty irrelevant.

If it were as simple as volume : price, then you would ofcourse win. Your library is great value in that respect. But for me, it doesnt muster any kind of excitement.

Again, PLEASE dont take this the wrong way. I see that you use this forum for market (as everyone does), so I am giving you some proper market feedback. Not the "OMFG this sounds amazing!!!", spiel you get from loads of people who probably wont purchase anyway.

And if you can make a library as unique and useful as either of the DR CD's, I will happily $199 for it. Infact, you can put me down for a condition purchase right now!

[Shane Sanders]

HI

Wasn't that long ago that you could download (for free) an entire 6 Volume multi-gig set of AKAI library from their server - how can anyone compete with that!

Flipper.

If you find this again, let me know!

[lawapa]

I can make what I want if I have access to instruments or musicians. And I have. But I also support thoses that do as well as I find having a well rounded library adds not subtracts. Capture and processing do add to it. Samples are static. You can eq a touch and compress but in the end without many layers the full acoustic timbral quality is frozen in that capture. Still for realism samples stand at the top of the chain. I really enjoy the process of creating from scratch a good sample set. But I will not counter, it's work and does take time away from sequencing music. A well made set is a thing of beauty.

[Dorian Gray]

hey thats a bit hard, I dont find the Space Hawk sound demos uninspiring, they are quite good actually. I suppose it depends what sort of sounds you want. Certainly Space Hawk is narrowed down to a very specific sound and music genre. I've heard some of the atmospheric/spacey Zerog and Eastwest romplers, and they sound totally crap for $200.

DG

[tee boy]

hey thats a bit hard, I dont find the Space Hawk sound demos uninspiring, they are quite good actually. I suppose it depends what sort of sounds you want. Certainly Space Hawk is narrowed down to a very specific sound and music genre. I've heard some of the atmospheric/spacey Zerog and Eastwest romplers, and they sound totally crap for $200.

DG

I dont think its hard - its my honest opinion, cant say much more than that really.

Dont forget, I never claimed that Space Hawk wasnt any good. Infact, I complimented Sonicfire on the high quality and great value of his product. Its just not for me, I dont find it inspiring at all.

And yes, I agree that much of the ZeroG ambient libraries are crap for the money. ZeroG seems to be VERY hit and miss. Some of its libraries are outstanding, others are terrible. Im quite sure that Space Hawk would compare favorably to many of those products... but I didnt like those either.

Lets face it, the old tried and tested methods are done and dusted. Sound designers need to start branching out and using innovative new techniques to make original sounds. Ian Boddy has not done that for ZeroG - quite the opposite from my experience. The only libraries can really break the mold, AND work musically are the Spectrasonics and BT ones. I wish I could find some more of this quality, so please somebody make one!

[Dorian Gray]

It is strange because I have the last 2 albums from Robert Rich and Ian Boddy which sound great, either i'm hearing more of Robert Rich on the albums, or Ian Boddy is just keeping the good stuff back for his own productions.

What is the BT library that is so good ? Whats it called ?

DG.

[tee boy]

Oh Im quite sure that Boddy's music is excellent. I just question the effort he put into his sample libraries. None of them make me do much more than yawn out loud (man, am I going to make some friends from this thread!).

Im sorry, I just get so sick and tired of people trying to sell me shite. Zero G are the kings of this - they can wrap up any old shite and make it appear great! The amount of times I NEARLY bought one of their libraries, then I listened to it else where and realised it was complete ham.

That said, I cant knock them for 'Planet of the Breaks' series. These are some of my favorite breaks, full stop!

BT did a couple of sample CD's called 'Twisted Textures' and 'Breaks from the Nu Skool'. Now, you may hate BT, but trust me these libraries are amazing! The sound design is more advanced than on the Spectrasonics libraries. However, the sample quality is slightly lower. But both libaries are top notch, loads of content, totally unique. Some of the sounds on Twisted Textures really blow me away.

Breaks is a collection of programmed, live and hybrid beats. Some of them are pretty tame, while others will completely knock your socks off. The quality is supperb, and the samples highly usable (especially as they are all sample accurate). But the best thing about this CD is that there are a couple of hundred live rock beats, and these are seriously good quality (sample accurate again). So basically, you can program a beat, then chuck in one of these live loops, EQ out the bottom and it will sit perfectly on top. So useful when you're beat is lacking.

I will give BT this much, he never fails to break the mold with respect to his sound design. And imo, his sample CD's are a must have.

[hollowsun]

Oh Im quite sure that Boddy's music is excellent. I just question the effort he put into his sample libraries.

Ermmmm.... months (or more) of sample creation (making and layering sounds on his impressive collection of modular and other synths) then looping, editing, programming, mapping, chopping, etc.. Maybe a year or so in its creation.

Ian is a friend of mine and I can assure you that his sound libs have all the passion and attention you would expect of one his albums. That you yawn and think they are "shite" is just your opinion. Others find them inspirational.

Sound library IS increasingly more difficult to sell these days because, quite frankly, the bottom line is that (for some reason) people aren't prepared to put their hands in their pocket for sounds and now (for some reason) just expect them for free almost as some kind of basic human right.

It's very odd - log onto carpenters.com... they've bought their hammers and saws and jigsaws and dovetailing jigs but they don't go up their asking where they can get free nails and blades. Similarly, bricklayers.com - they've bought their trowels and hods but they don't overwhelm the place with requests for free bricks or cement!!!

It's not a new phenomenon - I saw it as long ago as 1986 when the S900 came out... people somehow expected sounds for free without giving a thought to the sheer amount of work, time and expense required to make them. And that hasn't changed.

I and SonicFire, Bela-D Media, Garritan, SampleTekk - whoever - can spend months developing a particular lib at (often) extreme personal expense (not just financial but also time and time away from families as we obsess on delivering the best product). We have to pay for the instruments to sample and/or the musicians and/or the venue. Specialist programmers sometimes need to be hired. Some developers have to pay sales and tech support staff, have to pay for ads (banners here at KVR or other forums, several thousand $$$ for a page in a magazine, etc.), pay for attendance at trade shows (another several thousand $$$).

In other words, it can be incredibly costly to develop a library... but somehow it's expected for free.

Developers put up freebie 'tasters' which people leech without compunction... but never buy the product.

Then we have the altruistic nice guys who like to share their own sounds. More power to them but....

Quality control varies from thoroughly pro to utter shite - but no-one apparently cares coz it's free.

Piracy doesn't help either.

My advice to anyone considering a career in sound lib development is DON'T!!! It's tough and only likely to get worse. Give your sounds away by all means but expect server overload as the leechers rape your bandwidth. Feel free as well to sell your noises but don't expect people to be queueing round the block waving their credit cards at you!

I can't complain - Hollow Sun has, over the years, built a reputation for quality samples and sounds and sales are consistent and relatively steady but let's just say that I have to augment my income with other projects such as contract sound design work with the major Japanese manufacturers and other developers, magazine articles, session work, etc.. This is not unusual - one guy I know who is high on the list for a major Japanese manufacturer's sound design team supplements his income with three days a week at the Belgian Ministry Of Defence.

You see... we sound designers aren't all driving round in Ferraris and holidaying in exotic climes!!! On the contrary in fact

Think about it.

Steve