A case, a lion, a witch and IKWIL in your wardrobe

[cptgone]

WHO the hell would want to be in THIS guy's shoes? He has to pay 1.1 million dollars and go to jail for over 3 years? Big mistake.

By the time he gets out, AT2 will be out!

[spacefox]

WHO the hell would want to be in THIS guy's shoes? He has to pay 1.1 million dollars and go to jail for over 3 years? Big mistake.

By the time he gets out, AT2 will be out!

[mmdejonge]

Hey, I like to be more of the hippy type philosophy and ask people to just respect the rules and be cool. But, just so you know, you can break federal or international laws even with just one illegal software sale and potentially be in some serious trouble! So, you know, be careful is all. I am sure some of you live in countries where the laws may be different but I wouldn't test it. Be smart....

I posted this in the marketplace forum because I know there is a lot of selling of software and soundware here. Be careful. I would especially be careful not to buy a COPY (technically a bootleg) of any software or sounds.

Can a moderator please move this thread out of the marketplace, and into everything else or hyde park corner where it belongs?

I find Squids' implicit connection between 'illegal software sales' and activity in the marketplace forum here a bit too much. And, he has previously directed clear criticism at the marketplace forum by posting in the marketplace forum. In light of this, I can't really read his post as a 'just so you know...' type of thing, but more as a clear defense of his vested interests. Of course, I totally support his right to defend his interests and his business in a manner suitable to him, but I do not think the marketplace forum is the right place for this.

The marketplace at KvR is overwhelmingly populated by people making totally legal transactions on the basis that a very large majority of developers in computer music software, and indeed almost every developer with a forum at KvR (not Sonic Reality though) allows license transfers.

In fact, I think the marketplace forum here should be considered a success for the amount of successful, legal transactions that take place here.

And...'hippy type philosophy' ? come on man.

Totally agree.

[diverdee]

It's quite disturbing to see so many in here go "He should get what he deserves, these guys are the scum of the earth!". It's probably not like he's mentally ill or something, or a rapist getting convicted over and over again.

Whenever possible, the justice system SHOULD NOT be there for punishment and revenge, but for care and rehabilitation. It'd be much cheaper for the society if this guy could be brought back as a part of the community and as a legal citizen making a decent life. Now they've probably sentenced him to a criminal life. Prison time usually doesn't make criminals legal citizens as far as I know, and the fall-back rate is ridicously high.

Unfortunately google doesn't seem to be my friend today, but I remember reading a couple of years ago that they somewhere in the US had tried an alternative form of "punishment", which basicly was based purely on care and treatment on the convicted criminals to make a decent life for them. The cost per "punishment" was much higher, but since the fall-back rate decreased to something like 20% instead of 80%, the resulting cost was about the same as with normal imprisonment. But with less crime as a result that is. Unfortunately it seems often like it's way more important for people to get their revenge than to get a nicer society.

Well said mate.
Of course one could argue that the prison industry (especially in the states) is big business & that social control is also an aspect of it, vs. the working class & people of 'ethnicity' - a comparative examination of the sentences handed out ot white collar criminals vs. the plebians & 'coloureds' lends some weight to this also.
Damn lot of money made from prison in china also, lot of that money goes to western corporations also.

[emdot_ambient]

It's quite disturbing to see so many in here go "He should get what he deserves...Whenever possible, the justice system SHOULD NOT be there for punishment and revenge, but for care and rehabilitation.

As true as that is, the fact remains that the judicial system in most countries is punitive, not rehabilitative and you must face the fact that without a system of rehabilitation in place, you either enforce the law or you just let everyone go. You're talking about what "should be" not what is. Anyway, I'd venture to guess that most warez distributors are not sick. They're just criminals out to make a fast buck. It's illegal, it's disruptive and it leads to all kinds of trouble for we legal software users. After all, who gets punished by the software companies trying to protect their own investment and intellectual rights? We do, by having to suffer all the crappy copyright protection schemes they introduce. Without warez there would be no need for dongles or registration keys or call and response registration or periodically having to put the original CD in your PC.

It's fine to talk about what should be, but in the meantime there's real life to deal with and pirating is just wrong.

[3*s]

theft theft theft jail time blah blah

This isn't theft, you're making copies, not taking something away.

If you go into someone's house and take $1800 worth of property, then they no longer possess that property. That's theft.

If you make a copy of $1800 of software on someone's hard drive, they still possess that property. They haven't lost their $1800.

Case 1:

Person A: lost $1800
Person B: gained $1800

Case 2:

Person A: lost $0
Person B: gained $1800

See the difference? Can you call these 2 situations identical and treat them the same way in a court of law?

Can you treat a robber (A) the same way as a pirate (B)?

Please use your brains people.

[stefancrs]

It's quite disturbing to see so many in here go "He should get what he deserves...Whenever possible, the justice system SHOULD NOT be there for punishment and revenge, but for care and rehabilitation.

As true as that is, the fact remains that the judicial system in most countries is punitive, not rehabilitative and you must face the fact that without a system of rehabilitation in place, you either enforce the law or you just let everyone go. You're talking about what "should be" not what is. Anyway, I'd venture to guess that most warez distributors are not sick. They're just criminals out to make a fast buck. It's illegal, it's disruptive and it leads to all kinds of trouble for we legal software users. After all, who gets punished by the software companies trying to protect their own investment and intellectual rights? We do, by having to suffer all the crappy copyright protection schemes they introduce. Without warez there would be no need for dongles or registration keys or call and response registration or periodically having to put the original CD in your PC.

It's fine to talk about what should be, but in the meantime there's real life to deal with and pirating is just wrong.

But what I found disturbing wasn't actually the judicial system, but how people here act. The rest was just ranting from my side

Somehow some people in this thread seem to take pleasure in someones punishment, eventhough he really hasn't done any "real" damage to anyone, and if he has, it's really hard to determine what kind and how much. Yet people LIKE the fact that he goes to jail, I just don't see why.

I don't really care that he went to jail, but I'm not celebrating it either.

[Squids]

Hey, I like to be more of the hippy type philosophy and ask people to just respect the rules and be cool. But, just so you know, you can break federal or international laws even with just one illegal software sale and potentially be in some serious trouble! So, you know, be careful is all. I am sure some of you live in countries where the laws may be different but I wouldn't test it. Be smart....

I posted this in the marketplace forum because I know there is a lot of selling of software and soundware here. Be careful. I would especially be careful not to buy a COPY (technically a bootleg) of any software or sounds.

Can a moderator please move this thread out of the marketplace, and into everything else or hyde park corner where it belongs?

I find Squids' implicit connection between 'illegal software sales' and activity in the marketplace forum here a bit too much. And, he has previously directed clear criticism at the marketplace forum by posting in the marketplace forum. In light of this, I can't really read his post as a 'just so you know...' type of thing, but more as a clear defense of his vested interests. Of course, I totally support his right to defend his interests and his business in a manner suitable to him, but I do not think the marketplace forum is the right place for this.

The marketplace at KvR is overwhelmingly populated by people making totally legal transactions on the basis that a very large majority of developers in computer music software, and indeed almost every developer with a forum at KvR (not Sonic Reality though) allows license transfers.

In fact, I think the marketplace forum here should be considered a success for the amount of successful, legal transactions that take place here.

And...'hippy type philosophy' ? come on man.

I'll start at the end and work my way in. Hippy philosophy? You even say "come on MAN????" That's hippy talk right there. Don't deny it! Anyway, "man", what I meant by that is that I am not the type to go around suing people for ripping me off. Not that I wouldn't but I prefer to just try to reach more honest people (or the honest part of people) and offer some perspective from the developer's side as well as clarifications on license agreements.

That leads me to the next point. Sonic Reality differs from most of the other company forums on KVR because it focuses on sound development. There ARE a few other sound developers here on KVR such as Back In Time Records, Wizoo and more. It might be product specific but I know of products from those companies (and products from nearly every other professional sound developer) that have similar license agreements that prohibit the legal transfer of the license to another party. In other words, it is actually RARE that you can do that with a predominantly sample content-based product. If the product is protected via the software's serial or registration process then that opens up possibilities of ability to transfer more often, but it still depends on each company and each product. For instance, I don't know if you can transfer say BFD XFL to someone else. Can you? Well, anyway, even if you could that's again more on the rare side for a sample library.

Lastly, I posted this thread in the Marketplace because this is where people buy and sell on KVR. It isn't a bad thing for a buyer or seller to know that this guy suffered severe consequences for his actions. Now, at first when I got the letter on my desk about him being ordered to pay for 1 piece of soundware of ours I thought it could be a more extreme punishment for someone just buying or selling 6 music software products (which is all the letter I got revealed about the case). But, since someone posted that link it was revealed that the guy was selling software on the streets of New York and had up to a million dollars in retail value worth in his trunk, it became a bit different than I had thought. If I knew that from the beginning I might have posted it in the Everything Else forum.

So, I don't care if the moderator moves it. It doesn't need to be in this forum as far as I am concerned. I just brought it up out of interest (whichever forum here it may belong). It is not often that I have this kind of stuff in front of me and when I saw it I immediately thought of posting about it on KVR. Whether it defends small businesses in the software/soundware industry or is just an interesting conversation piece, I see nothing wrong with posting it. If you don't like it then find another thread to read.

(and that's a lot to be said on these subjects considering that isn't even the subject of this thread)

[Squids]

theft theft theft jail time blah blah

This isn't theft, you're making copies, not taking something away.

If you go into someone's house and take $1800 worth of property, then they no longer possess that property. That's theft.

If you make a copy of $1800 of software on someone's hard drive, they still possess that property. They haven't lost their $1800.

Case 1:

Person A: lost $1800
Person B: gained $1800

Case 2:

Person A: lost $0
Person B: gained $1800

See the difference? Can you call these 2 situations identical and treat them the same way in a court of law?

Can you treat a robber (A) the same way as a pirate (B)?

Please use your brains people.

Hehe. Couple of questions then. What if the person who buys the copy for $30 would have otherwise paid $1,800? That's a loss of $1,800 to the store that would have sold it legitimately and to the company that made the software. Second question. What if the person is selling a copy of a copy? How about multiple copies (such as what the guy this thread is referencing did)? This guy appparently had warez from an extremely wide variety of software companies but imagine if it was just ONE. Imagine if he was going to sell 1 million dollars of one company's software for 10 cents on the dollar. If he was actually successful at it (say via on line etc.) then he could put that other company out of business (or be a strong contributor toward that end). Is that not a big enough loss?

Well, anyway, we can judge all we want. I don't think any of us here are FOR piracy (hopefully not anyway). As for "just punishment", there are some interesting points brought up in here. The whole punishment vs. rehabilitation argument for example. I go back and forth between both sides and don't know which is the best myself. I do think that unless someone is insane though that they need to be responsible for their actions and knowing that there are consequences at least provides them with a deterant. If there were no consequences such as punishment (and instead a "retreat" for rehabilitation) then that might even be some INCENTIVE to commit crimes! (just kidding... more or less anyway).

Also, for the record, I am not for rape of any kind which includes prison rape. That said, I do think that Bubbah jokes are funny. But, I think a lot of things are funny and humor is one of the best things in life. I am willing to make some sacrifices for it. If I come off less moral for it then... oh well. I'd rather have a balance. If everything one said was strictly relating to high morals with no room for humor then life would be boring in my opinion. Although I realize that the previous comment about that was likely not directed at me. But, my views on that none the less.

I do think that, although this thread is interesting, I really do agree that it doesn't belong in the Marketplace forum, especially how it has evolved into this discussion. So, Everything Else? And, sorry if I posted it in the wrong forum but with 4,000+ posts you're bound to do that once in a while.

[Hink]

giving them a couple hundred hours of public service teaching the elderly to use computers....

Great! Just what we need-seniors with all the time in the world on their hands getting first hand instruction on warez and cracking software!

but tbh most of the elderly I know have too much respect to pirate and second the reason I said teach the elderly is because it's no easy task. Try it sometime, the day my father fell on the ice was just arriving at his house to take his P3 out. He had had it, this brilliant engineeer who designed equipment to test gyroscopes used in guidance systems couldn't after two years still couldn't grasp the basics...yet my mother who once reduced a steak to a mass of bubbling oozing liquid in a microwave (no lie, worst smell I ever smelled) can at least send and recieve emails.

[fake]

Scare tactics and a lot of misinformation and hype going on here.

It seems like the person prossecuted here was not small fry, not the average "cracked software" user. Most of this software is available on the net and can be downloaded for free. Sad but true!
It seems as though people were paying around $1000 for a piece of pirated software, sorry but that don't add up.

Strange, I thought laws were made "for and on behalf of the people" not for and behalf of corporations."
People should respect the law and that includes developers. Software is one of the few industries that do not, in most cases, abide by the law and seem to think they are in some cases exempt from it. Most think because of the medium they are a "special" case.
Just read an EULA and you will see what I mean, restriction after restriction of your basic common rights. If your PC explodes because of the software and you lose an eye, tough!
Don't forget that in many countries you are buying a product and NOT a license unless you agree to it beforehand. The product is yours and you can, within reason do what you like with it. That also includes reselling .

Also just because a product is made in the USA does not mean that USA laws automatically apply in all countries. Unlike what squids said, people should challange them as they are very fuzzy.


fake

[Squids]

I was going to write a whole long post about EULAs but I am not in the mood to get into it too much at the moment (quite tedious debate). Your country has different rules? Good for you. People often tend to do whatever they want anyway, whatever the consequences may be... ie. perhaps nothing or as worse as this guy and variances in between.

It's funny but when I read some posts I wonder if people really want to support the industry this site is about or not.

[stefancrs]

You mean posts in this thread? I think almost all in this thread wants to support this industry. Maybe not all of us want to cheer or start pointing fingers or tell scary stories when someone gets sentenced several years to jail, that doesn't mean that we don't want to support the industry, nor that we think that what this particular guy did was right.

Challenging for instance EULA's is not the same as supporting the industry, it might even be out of consideration for the industry, or whatever. I don't know. Most EULA's are bogus anyway

[diverdee]

I was going to write a whole long post about EULAs but I am not in the mood to get into it too much at the moment (quite tedious debate). Your country has different rules? Good for you. People often tend to do whatever they want anyway, whatever the consequences may be... ie. perhaps nothing or as worse as this guy and variances in between.

It's funny but when I read some posts I wonder if people really want to support the industry this site is about or not.

I reckon people do want to support the industry - but that isn't the issue & it's kinda wrong to make that statement.
What people want generally is to feel that they have been played fair, rather than just played.
Software has EULA's which contain info. that most often isn't displayed until the box has been opened & you have started to install - by that time it's all too often too late to get a refund - unfair.
Reselling is sometimes a hassle as one doesn't actually own the software, or samples - just the licence to use them (even though it has been bought with hard earned cash) - seems a tad unfair.
An example:
Read a thread today on cubase.net, a guy's 2.5 year old son has dissapered his SX dongle.
Steinberg do not replace lost dongles - you have to buy the whole package again, even though the dongle is their choice of copy protection & holds the lice3nce to use the software - & is not the software itself (that whole ownership vs. licence to use thing again).
This apparently (confirmed by C. Dettner) isn't noted anywhere on the packaging (maybe it is in the eula - I don't know, but by then it is often too late anyway as I said previously).
It is only recently that this information has been included in the SX FAQ, for those with an internet connected pc & the will to look.
Apart form the fact that this shows a distinct lack of trust in the legitimate customers who have spent a great deal of money on steinberg products (remember that their VTIS licences are also now dongle based) it seems a little unfair.
Was that a rant? I dunno, just reading that post on the steiny forum really pissed me off - poor fuckin dude.
At least with pace if you take out the protection they will send you a new dongle & temporary licences & it is then up to the individual software vendors as to whether you will get the full licence again - I would hope so, but have no personal knowledge concerning this - at least the temporary licence pace gives you allows you to finish projects i'm actualy giving pace the comparative thumbs up when comparing to steiny n& synchrosoft & I bleedin hate pace!!!
Wandered a bit from the original topic - but that statement you just made needed addressing (IMO).

[Squids]

I told part of this story and someone else found out the rest of the details (which turned out to be a bit differen than I thought originally) and if you find it too scary then I am sorry. I am sure there are less scary threads to read around here.

If people want to disrespect EULAs, that's their problem. I am not the freakin' EULA police. I am merely one of many sound developers using a standard license agreement in the industry (since its beginning) that is meant to protect the intellectual property of sound recordings (samples). Whether it does an adequate job at it is a whole other story. It's funny, but if we're all musicians then we should be familiar with intellectual property known as SONGS and MUSIC RECORDINGS? If you do it as a profession you do. There is a difference between licensing for use in media vs. for one's own pleasure/personal use. Music can be offered both ways. But, actually samples are usually sold as a content licensed for use in media, not as a form of entertainment itself (even though it can be entertaining and is often used by hobbyists in that way).

When your music may be offered as a license professionally to say a movie company, believe me you would not stand for them to be able to transfer that license to another movie company to use your music. Not if it is your profession and you take it seriously, especially with a whole company depending on that income.

No matter how you slice it the whole software and music industry is very volatile as it is. Supporting it to me means paying for the original so that the people who created it get paid (so they can reach all that want it and be fueled financially to do more). But, that's just MY opinion (of which I am entitled so it isn't "wrong" to say... surely).

As for why I posted this in the first place, look, I found something concrete in front of me about a guy ripping off software developers and getting 3 years in jail for it. So, I posted about it. Interested in it? Great. Not interested in it? Okay, I didn't expect everyone to be. But, I've been on KVR for years and I know some people are curious about this stuff. That's all. So, I posted about it. Silly me for thinking it could stay on topic.