KVR Audio

oldevil · Post by **oldevil** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:29 pm

allow me to get everybody pissed off(i'm good at it!)..i've read numerous accounts of child molesters blaming the victims. recently one in this area was convicted of molesting 6 children, aged 3-11; in court he said the children wanted him to do it, they came on to him. it was their fault! that 'logic' isn't dissimiliar to the argument that the software companies are responsible for piracy. sure, it's not the same level of evil, but the 'logic' applied is not much different. maybe the molester i mentioned and AR are 'roommates'...

stefancrs · Post by **stefancrs** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:33 pm

To Squids:
Oh, hm. Who are you adressing?

About the EULAs and the like, I guess I'm part of the adressed crowd. But in the last paraphrase I think you're adressing somebody else, because the ones active in this thread DO find this interesting. Otherwise we wouldn't have all this nagging

There's nothing scary about the story, imo, but the whole thing DID kindof come off as if you actually wanted to scare "potential criminals". Maybe that's not what you wanted, and I'm not saying that it was, but that's kindof how it appeared. Imo.

Regarding the "yay! he's getting what he deserves" remarks I made, those weren't directed towards you at all. But towards the people that said such things.

diverdee · Post by **diverdee** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:34 pm

No disrespect intended towards yourself anyway Mr. Squids - you have always come across as a completely stand up, respectful, knowledgeable, helpful guy who obviously loves what you do, & it shows.
Sonicreality products (reason refills etc.) are the bomb & are offered at an attractive price.
Just don't want you to think I was directing any kind of personal attack on you, as I most definately wasn't.
I like you (strictly platonic & all that though old chap)

Squids · Post by **Squids** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:58 pm

Thanks. I appreciate that. Some people know me a bit better around here than others. It is not my style to try to "scare" anyone or bully around or anything like that. I just brought it up because I found it! Sure, it could have been useful as food for thought especially if it was more along the lines of what I thought it was. Keep in mind, it came off in the letter like it was a guy who just bought or sold 6 products and was sentenced to 3 years in jail! I thought to myself "Holy sh*t!!!!" and went straight to KVR. Now that we all know what the real story was its different. This guy was a major pirate doing it as a business and selling (not buying) a whole lot more than 6 products.

Hmm. If I knew that from the start I would have posted differently or maybe not posted at all actually. I probably should have investigated it a bit more I suppose before I hastily posted about it. Although, to be honest, I didn't see the harm in bringing it up for discussion. I didn't exactly have time to hunt for the rest of the information and was grateful to the person who posted the rest of it so we could all know the scoop. However, even to me I dont' find it THAT interesting (not my bag really... more like "oh WOW! THAT guy is screwed!... next?"). The news is filled with crime everyday. I find it boring and depressing.

So, with that, I don't think there is anyting more to add to this thread from me. If you want to discuss EULA stuff we should probably do it in another thread and even there I might cry Uncle!

I try to be helpful on the subject but sometimes people misundestand me and think that I am THE ultimate hard ass when it comes to EULAs. Ironically, in the pro sample industry I am one of the most relaxed and reasonable about it. heh. Well, I should probably not talk about it lest people think I really care THAT much about that stuff. Really I just like to work on making great sounds and be thankful to the people that support us doing it for a living.

No direct comments to anyone in particular about "supporting the industry" or not. Just a general feeling I get sometimes when there is opposition to EULAs. Could even be my own paranoia.

Okay. Cheers! I'm out. If you direct anything to me I might miss it if I don't check this thread anymore.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:59 pm

oldevil wrote:allow me to get everybody pissed off(i'm good at it!)..i've read numerous accounts of child molesters blaming the victims. recently one in this area was convicted of molesting 6 children, aged 3-11; in court he said the children wanted him to do it, they came on to him. it was their fault! that 'logic' isn't dissimiliar to the argument that the software companies are responsible for piracy. sure, it's not the same level of evil, but the 'logic' applied is not much different. maybe the molester i mentioned and AR are 'roommates'...

I'm sorry I do not see the relation...

Are you saying that software companies saying they need for protection is paramount to the child molester saying it's the children's fault? Or are you saying that software companies are asking for it because they make intrusive protection devices?...maybe it's me...but I just do not see your point...no offense intended.

BTW software companies could release their software to warez intentionally to bolster their need for protection...which would give them a reason to overcharge the customers.

But if you ask me, the comparison of the child molester would be more relevant if software companies blamed honest customers for piracy or if warez blamed software companies for not protecting themselves.

Whoomph · Post by **Whoomph** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:02 pm

great thread !!!

stefancrs · Post by **stefancrs** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:09 pm

I think more freeware devs should release their stuff AS IF it was warez

Like... call it Synth1.v1.07.Alpha2-H2O etc, and put it on the p2p networks. That'd make it way more popular!

emdot_ambient · Post by **emdot_ambient** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:16 pm

3*s wrote:
theft theft theft jail time blah blah
This isn't theft, you're making copies, not taking something away...Please use your brains people.

Funny you should end your comment with that statement, because what you're essentially saying is that copyright theft, that is, the theft of intellectual property, isn't theft at all.

If you spent 3 years using your brain to come up some brilliant new software and then you found out that some schmuck had copied it and was selling it on line for 1/10th of what you're asking for it . . . you wouldn't feel pissed off? You wouldn't feel like all your hard work was for nothing 'cause some thief had swiped it and was using your work for his gain?

It's thinking like this that has ended up in all of us legal users of software having to suffer the horrors of copyright protection schemes.

And BTW, if all the civilized countries of the world make laws prohibiting copyright theft . . . then, yes, technically it IS theft.

User your friggin' brain, will you?

fake · Post by **fake** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:27 pm

I think the very fact that kvr is a success is because it and the industry is supported well here.

Sorry, I should have explained a bit better before.

I mentioned EULA's and now copy protection because I wonder sometimes if they contribute to piracy and using cracked software. Make things too restrictive and then people ignore the rules.

Unfortunatly the industry bares a lot of the blame. On the one hand we have software developers trying to protect their product and copyright, and then we have an industry that makes software and recorders. CDR and now DVDR.

Sony sell music, copy protect it and get into trouble. Yet, they also make CD copiers that "guarantee" to give a perfect copy.
"You can't do that it's illegal" then they sell you the tools, ie software, hardware and broadband to do it!

fake

emdot_ambient · Post by **emdot_ambient** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:32 pm

stefancrs wrote:Somehow some people in this thread seem to take pleasure in someones punishment

I don't take any more pleasure in the punishment than I do in the crime.

stefancrs wrote:...eventhough he really hasn't done any "real" damage to anyone, and if he has, it's really hard to determine what kind and how much...

Well, as I said to 3*s, but in softer terms: You go and spend all your time, money and effort to put out a piece of software and then tell me how it feels to have it pirated. Or, go ask anyone who's had bad run-ins with Pace copyright protection and see if there's been no "real" damage done by software pirates.

I'm no fanatic about the supposed financial losses caused by pirates, they are certainly overstated because a portion of the people buying pirated software/music would never pay full price, but that's not the issue. The rights to intellectual property have long-standing protection under the law. If you reverse-engineer an XBox 360 and put out your own version, do you have any doubt you would be prosecuted? It's the same thing with software. You're copying something that's been developed by someone else, at their expense, and then profiting from something you don't own. It's just as illegal and you should be prosecuted just as vigorously.

emdot_ambient · Post by **emdot_ambient** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:46 pm

fake wrote:Sony sell music, copy protect it and get into trouble. Yet, they also make CD copiers that "guarantee" to give a perfect copy.
"You can't do that it's illegal" then they sell you the tools, ie software, hardware and broadband to do it!

I don't agree with that argument. There are perfectly legitimate uses of tape records, minidiscs, CDRs and DVDRs. In fact, I view that as a positive aspect of the market. A company dealing in intellectual property like music who really wanted to crack down and be idiots would sell music only and try like hell to sue the manufacturers of recording devices. The fact Sony does both shows a more progressive (and capitalistic)streak. Where they do wrong is that they fail to realize the economic potential that could be had by embracing and championing the digital revolution by creating viable online for-pay music distribution schemes. Instead, they resist change and try to limit the growth of digital music distribution through legal and technological means (and end up getting burnt in the sphere of public relations). They remind me of the auto and energy industries who resist alternative ecological fuel development because they're so entrenched in the status quo, when they are the ones who would profit most by developing and deploying the very technologies they are resisting.

Phew. Longwinded entry. In a nutshell: there's no irony in Sony selling both music and recorders. That's like saying selling both PC software and PC hardware (which can be used to hack and duplicate software) is ironic. It's not. It's simple economic diversification.

BTW, Sony sells headphones which can cause deafness. They also sell hearing aid batteries. Gosh, the irony.

munchkin · Post by **munchkin** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:10 pm

Why post a thread about the conviction of someone selling millions of $ worth of software as a warning to people selling products in market place?

Has the warez paranoia got to such a level that devs have to resort to these scare tactics to try to frighten the majority of honest people at KVR.

I'm certain that if KVRians were selling warez via the market place it would've come to light by now. As this hasn't happened I can only assume that Squids has a touch of the festive paranioas owing to the amount of xmas sales he is facing from the competition.

Instead of calling the thread, 'a case of jail time...', perhaps it should've been called, 'a case of hysteria...'

fake · Post by **fake** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:34 pm

You hit the nail.

"capitalistic streak" is what it is.

The very products they produce are being copied on the very products they produce, Not ironic!
Their dedicated hi-fi music cd copiers are there to do one thing, copy music cd's. Their copy protection was there to stop it!

New term invented "Capitalistic Surrealism"

fake

stefancrs · Post by **stefancrs** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:44 pm

emdot_ambient wrote:
stefancrs wrote:Somehow some people in this thread seem to take pleasure in someones punishment
I don't take any more pleasure in the punishment than I do in the crime.

stefancrs wrote:...eventhough he really hasn't done any "real" damage to anyone, and if he has, it's really hard to determine what kind and how much...
Well, as I said to 3*s, but in softer terms: You go and spend all your time, money and effort to put out a piece of software and then tell me how it feels to have it pirated. Or, go ask anyone who's had bad run-ins with Pace copyright protection and see if there's been no "real" damage done by software pirates.

I'm no fanatic about the supposed financial losses caused by pirates, they are certainly overstated because a portion of the people buying pirated software/music would never pay full price, but that's not the issue. The rights to intellectual property have long-standing protection under the law. If you reverse-engineer an XBox 360 and put out your own version, do you have any doubt you would be prosecuted? It's the same thing with software. You're copying something that's been developed by someone else, at their expense, and then profiting from something you don't own. It's just as illegal and you should be prosecuted just as vigorously.

Well, I AM making a living as a software developer. So far, piracy hasn't been troubling me. FWIW, there's plenty of legal "piracy", atleast in sweden. Not software but hardware. Spare parts for cars was a big issue back in the days, but the "pirates" won. If it was good or not, that I do not know.

Still, "blaming" for instance Pace on the pirates is a bit weird

emdot_ambient · Post by **emdot_ambient** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:51 pm

stefancrs wrote:Still, "blaming" for instance Pace on the pirates is a bit weird

How so? If there were no pirates, no one would need a copyright protection scheme. I've had no experience with Pace, BTW, but I've heard horror stories from others. But software dongles and all the rest only exist because people ripped off the software companies.

A case, a lion, a witch and IKWIL in your wardrobe