Does the samples business is going well?

[herodotus]

Why do people keep conflating their own opinions with the opinions of everyone else?

I am not demanding 'fairness'.

So many people seem to think they are being objective when they are, in fact, making statements that are inherently personal in nature.

Like when someone says "sample library x is uninspiring", the form of the sentence gives an impression of objectivity ("I know sample libraries, and this one isn't good") that just doesn't apply. Inspiration is inherently personal.

Issues of quality (e.g. samples that don't loop right, clipping, mislabelled or deceptively labelled samples, etc.) are objective, and if devs are lacking in these areas, have at 'em.

But when someone just reiterates, again and again, about how some demos for a product are 'uninspiring' and that therefore the product is a bad value for the money, that is just being....well....rude.

[tee boy]

Herodotus,

I cant agree with you there bred (even though I love and cherish your loops! ).

Yes, it is subjective to an extent. But when people create highly generic sounds using tired OLD techniques, I think you can objectively say that its not particularly inspiring work. And I believe if most people A / B'ed the libraries Iv commented on, they would reach the same conclusion.

I merely compared works by Eric Persing and BT to similar works by Ian Boddy and others. Imo there is no contest on any level. That IS subjective.

Also, not really sure why so many people are getting on the defensive. Is this not the whole purpose of this forum - market research? If devs dont want to here REAL opinions about their products, then they should probably stay out of the proverbial kichten (as it gets hot my friend!). Maybe if the devs were a little more objective about their products, they would thing twice before releasing substandard work and in turn do the industry a huge favor.

[hollowsun]

Is this not the whole purpose of this forum - market research?

Ermmm.... not the last time I looked! That's one useful side-effect of it but I have never believed that to be its sole purpose.

If devs dont want to here REAL opinions about their products, then they should probably stay out of the proverbial kichten

I'll take "REAL" opinions IF the commentator has actually heard/bought/used it.

Maybe if the devs were a little more objective about their products, they would thing twice before releasing substandard work

I am very objective about my work and wouldn't release it if it was in any way "sub-standard" (in fact, I've shelved stuff because it was less than perfect).

If you don't like my stuff or aren't interested... if it doesn't float your boat, that's fine with me but to lump all library (including mine) as "sub-standard" just because it doesn't fit with what you want or because it doesn't conform to your view of what a library should be, as Heterodus says, that is just rude!!

Initially, I made library available just for the hell of it - coz I could - but then I focused on providing more because people were telling me (in droves) that my stuff was better than they were paying good $$ for! Necessity (unfortunately) forced me to sell it.

Do not confuse 'conventional, well-established and professionally executed sampling techniques' with "sub-standard".

Perhaps you can share your insight as to what a library should be so that we devs can all benefit.


Steve

[tee boy]

Steve,

Again, you take my comments a little too personally. Im speaking across the board, NOT about your products. Im sure as a developer you know when a product is up to scratch or not. And if you can genuinely tell me that you feel the majority of sample products live up to their hype, then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.


Let me give you an example of what I mean:

I recently checked out a library of loops from one of the big development houses. I was dismayed to discover that 90% of the sounds were rips straight of commercial records. When I contacted the dev to ask whether the samples were cleared, he denied that they were even sampled from the records they clearly were from. So I contacted the producer who admitted all to me, and said that he didnt worry about clearing sounds as 'everyone samples this stuff anyway'.

Basically this BIG developer was selling a bunch of illegally sampled loops for a premium price. And this is far from a one off. Virtually every sample CD (with in certain genres) I use is either a) 75% rubbish or b) full of illegal samples.

This is not a personal statement against you or any one else. But Im sure under these circumstances you can see why I would be a little disillusioned about the business. And Id bet Im far from being alone in this.

Also, Im sure why I am being called rude? If I said I didnt like a certain artists work, would that be rude too? Is this a 'if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all' forum all of a sudden? Steve, if you read my posts back you will see that I have praised products just as much as I have slated them (and I have tried to justify my opinions).

So what is the problem? I dont see any at all. If you are that emotive that you cant even handle critisism of the industry in which you work, then I have to question you objectiveness also.

Btw, I feel I am adequate enough a sound designer to pass comment of others work. And if you would like to discuss anything with me (in relation to your 'insight' question) then feel free to drop me a pm. I will happily discuss this with you for free

[hollowsun]

Again, you take my comments a little too personally. Im speaking across the board, NOT about your products.

Ok.. fair enough - but there was a tacit implication that products that you didn't like (for whatever reason) are somehow 'sub-standard'.

Im sure as a developer you know when a product is up to scratch or not. And if you can genuinely tell me that you feel the majority of sample products live up to their hype..... <snip>

That I can't and I will admit that I too have been disappointed with many sample CDs I have bought - obvious, clicky loops (or none at all!), bad and clumsy (and obviously amateur) programming, lack lustre sounds. But you cannot arbitrarily lump everything into that category just coz you got burnt once or twice - it's a bit like saying that because you got shafted on a used car once, ALL used cars are shite!

Let me give you an example of what I mean:

I recently checked out a library of loops from one of the big development houses. I was dismayed to discover that 90% of the sounds were rips straight of commercial records...... <snip>

That is disgraceful and should be prosecuted. But I and many other devs here don't resort to such dubious practices and our library is as much a labour of love as it is a means to put some food on the table. Which is why I took exception at the sweeping 'sub-standard' criticism.

Also, Im [not] sure why I am being called rude?

Ok.. apologies - maybe that was a little hot-headed but my response was based on the fact that you've not bought any of my stuff yet seemed to lump it into your 'sub-standard' category... not based on your exerience of it, feeling ripped off at shoddy programming and/or clicky loops, etc..... just based on the implication that it's 'sub-standard' just coz it doesn't interest you

If you are that emotive that you cant even handle critisism of the industry in which you work, then I have to question you objectiveness also.

Oh - don't worry - I can take criticism. The thing is, I haven't had to with my customers - on the contrary in fact



Steve

[tee boy]

Steve,

Ok, just so we are crystal clear, here are some facts for the record:

- I have never critisised your work

- I dont own any of your commerical products

- Everything I hear about them leads me to believe that they are top notch

- I DO own the majority of your free collection, and love them to bits!

- If I were in the market for synth multisamples, your gaff would be among the first places Id head


There are ofcourse many great sample devs around, and Im sure that they make and market their sounds with the utmost care and attention. These libraries I am totally prepared to shell out for, and do so regularly!

My problem is with the widespread attitude that seems to run through the industry. The idea that the adequate sounds are fine if the spiel is highly tuned enough. Some libraries are clearly targetted at the newbie segment, and these are the worlds worst (like many of the dance / loop libraries).

Infact, this example would illustrate the problem perfectly. Take a library like ZeroG's Wired, or Ueberschalls Trance Essentials. Both of these libraries are hyped as being cutting edge sounds perfect for the dance floor. But any self respecting dance muso knows that these loops are all but useless for professional tracks. Maybe a few of the drum sounds are workable as source material, but the rest is very poor (and that isnt just my opinion!).

So what you have here is a load of talk, and not much trousers. Is it hardly surprising that people are opting to sample their own sounds, or get them from respectable sites like VIP or Vengeance? Not really no. Infact, I think I would find only a couple of dance libraries that are worth buying, and that is disgracefull. Now, dance libraries arent really my thing, but Im sure this demonstrates the point.

Now then, enough of the negativity. You asked about suggestions, and I do infact have some thoughts:

Is it not possible that the failing devs (who produce quality products) are marketing to the wrong segments? It would seem that the professional market would be buying just as much as they ever did do back in the day - its the amateur market that are going crazy for freeware. Now, I would assume that the majority of media professionals would buy from well known distributors following reviews and announcements in the press, right? So maybe its not the best idea to market mainly to the forums, as these are predominantly amateur users?

Just a thought, cuz I know sonicfire has been having some problems with his Space Hawk library. Id bet that with the proper marketing this library could sell much better. But outside of the online community, does anyone even know it exsists?

Id wager that the way to suceed would be to release QUALITY titles through know distribution chains or development houses. If one wanted to distribute via a personal website, then Id bet the professional market would be difficult to penetrate. All speculation though, so Id love to know what any of our prof devs think on the matter.