I am turning into a theory slut

[DWb]

I have personal tastes, and that makes me insane or worthy of pity?

I wouldn't go so far as to say insane, but presumably the pity is because the poster (like me) gets an incredible amount of joy out of classical music and pities anyone who's missing out on that.

Insane possibly because your two (stated) criticisms were the lack of imagery and feeling, which are two things that classical music is quite noted for an abundance of... but that's probably overstating the case.

Classical music is a different language in many ways, though, and if you're not used to it I can see how it could leave you cold.

Out of interest, as a prog fan what do you think of people like The Nice or ELP doing versions of classical pieces?

[Amberience]

I haven't heard either of their efforts at doing it to be honest, but have you heard Vivaldi by Curved Air?

It's Vivaldi but in a more psychedelic vein, with some funky jazz drumming and bass in it. Got it on a video DVD I bought, good stuff.

[vurt]

I wouldn't go so far as to say insane, but presumably the pity is because the poster (like me) gets an incredible amount of joy out of classical music and pities anyone who's missing out on that.

but that can go both ways,there is music that makes me shiver and weep that most people cant listen to for more than a few mins,there is music other people love that i cant see the attraction of.
as andy(chibs) himself stated this does not mean we think its shit merely we dont get the same feelings from it as others do.

[Amberience]

Even now I still get a good shiver or two with a few Cradle Of Filth tracks, which most would probably hate.

[rpc9943]

i could never get past the 5th's ring or whatever the hell theyre talking about- and i dont care what numbers work together or whatnot. screw it, the mathematics ruins it for me. i write what i feel and i find my own way around the fretboard, sure it could be analyzed down to a scale or something, and maybe its not the most impressive theory structure ever created, but its how i feel at the time in sonic energy.

RonC

[funkychickendance]

Where alot of people get confused is that as you move down the white keys switching "modes", you're also switching the key you're playing in. So while you ARE playing in say... phrygian when you play all the white keys starting from E on your keyboard, you're playing E phrygian.

This actually is one of the most common misunderstandings (or misconceptions) ever. And very few theory books take care of it.
"Play C major from E to E and your in E phrygian". Nonsense! It's still C major.
It will only sound like a phrygian scale when used in a phrygian harmonic context. The easiest way to play E phrygian would be to have a deep E drone and play notes out of C major over it - without any particular progression of the notes. You could still play C major from C to C - over an E bassnote (or an Emin chord, for the matter), it'd sound phrygian.

Which takes me back to a metaquestion I asked a couple of days back, in a thread eulogizing ChordSpace... does anyone know of a VST -- or even a decent online resource -- enabling the 'modally challenged' to resolve questions like this, and ideally capable of generating suitable arpeggiations of modal patterns? Along with "play it over this, dummy!" options... [Kinda Steve Vai in a can, I guess]

/fcd
"you're so lazy, you want someone else to play your music for you!"

[androidlove]

Brontosaurus: (n) A dinosaur that is thin at one end, much, much thicker in the middle and then thin again at the far end.

[DWb]

but that can go both ways,there is music that makes me shiver and weep that most people cant listen to for more than a few mins,there is music other people love that i cant see the attraction of.
as andy(chibs) himself stated this does not mean we think its shit merely we dont get the same feelings from it as others do.

Yeah, it's true. Although there have been things that I couldn't see the attraction of until I heard them in the right context / got used to the musical language / approached them with the right frame of mind.

[Jbravo]

Alot of classical music is based on repetition, which altho present in todays music, isn't adhered to as much as some classical peices. Hwr, not all classical music is like this...

actually I'd say it's mostly the other way round. Most popular music only contains one and a half simple musical ideas which are repeated over and over again (verse chorus verse chorus etc) - there are even less ideas in dance music but the artistry is all in the finding the right timbre and production. Most classical music has way too many ideas for anyone to get a grip on on first listen, By the time you've got your head around one it's off doing something else and it's only repeated listening that brings rewards. I think this is a major reason why a lot of people are turned off by classical music (including me sometimes - less is more and all that)

[xander]

Even so, the argument that it [learning music theory] does cramp creativity employs a kind of sideways logic that some people will defend to the death...

You're an expert on how everyone creates?

Where on earth do I indicate or imply that I am an expert on how everyone creates? That's YOUR subtext ya pedantic trollop, not mine

My point is simple enough if read in context:

How is it that a set of tools & theories used for communicating musical notation from one human to another can cramp someone's musical style?

They use the logical(?) argument that 'using such has an adverse effect on my creativity'?

You can extend this sort of weird logic to the use of a midi piano roll -- a form of notation, in which case it could be really dangerous and screw people up bigtime...

[selfconstruct]

I haven't read all of this but I've seen a few of these theory discussion posts. I hope I'm not repeating somone.

It seems a lot of folks misinterpret music theory as a set of rules. I guess parts of it are. For example if you learn how to create a fugue and follow the rules of a fugue, then you will compose a fugue - which limits your creativity if you're after something else. But I wouldn't try and drill a hole with a circular saw and complain that power tools limit my ability to shape my environment.

Theory is a model describing how music works. It offers a definition and is a pretty good record of many hundreds of years of thought. The notion that acquiring this knowledge is limiting is like thinking that reading a dictionary means that you can only use the words as entire sentences as given by the examples.

Of course I'm not suggesting that everyone has to learn theory to become a competent composer; just by listening and doing you will acquire theory. I have a reasonable handle on English which I got through listening and talking. Maybe if I study some grammar my conversation will become dull or I won't be able to express myself as clearly.

In short what I'm trying to say is that I don't understand why people hold a position against music theory.

[Ildon]

If you feel restricted by music theory, it's your own fault. Sometimes this happens because of the way a person has been taught and sometimes that person has just taken the wrong approach to learning the theory. No matter what, though, you're the only one who can put limitations on yourself.

[putte]

.. music is like lego ..

[androidlove]

"I KNOW this defies the law of gravity, but, you see, I never studied law!"
-Bugs Bunny

[whyterabbyt]

Where on earth do I indicate or imply that I am an expert on how everyone creates? That's YOUR subtext ya pedantic trollop, not mine

Its implicit in the fact that you call it 'sideways logic' that some people claim it would cramp their creativity. Unless you have some specific insight into that creativity for all individuals, how on earth do you get to claim that it is 'sideways logic' rather than actual fact?



My point is simple enough if read in context:

How is it that a set of tools & theories used for communicating musical notation from one human to another can cramp someone's musical style?

Unless the notation is flexible enough to cover all applicable musical/sound phenomena, and the theories encompass all possible arrangements of those musical/sound phenomena, then it fails to address the full range of possibilities that people might experiment with.

Putting someone under pressure to adopt a system of notation or theory which does not actually cater for aspects of their creative output is certainly capable of 'cramping their style'.

I wonder what chefs would say if you told them they had to adopt a notation for ingredients and a theory of flavour combinations before the meals they produced were considered anything but a reflection of 'sideways logic'.

They use the logical(?) argument that 'using such has an adverse effect on my creativity'?

I doubt if its an argument; I suspect its an explanation of factual circumstance. The fact that you dont give credence to it as being factual is what makes you respond to it as an 'argument'

You can extend this sort of weird logic to the use of a midi piano roll -- a form of notation, in which case it could be really dangerous and screw people up bigtime...

YOu can extend it that way if you choose, but it has no relevance if you consider that a piano roll ostensibly does nothing more than demark different timing and durations for discrete sets of potentially parallel events. Its derivation from piano keys is purely incidental depending on the context of use.