question on loops/phrases

[tee boy]

Watermarking / fingerprinting is not an effective way to copy protect samples. The slightest creative processing will completely obliterate the inbedded watermark and render it useless.

But with respect to the question - you need permission to use ANY audio that you havent recorded or synthesized yourself. Plain and simple. Doesnt matter if the audio is from a record, out of a ROMsynth or drum machine, off another sample CD, from TV or film... it is all covered by copyright. The only way to legally do this is to record the instrument yourself.

Ofcourse, some products have different licensing agreements, but this is the general rule of thumb.

[sonicfire]

Hi folks!

I have a simple question - when i, lets say take a single simple bongo/conga sound from somewhere, modify it a bit and create a complete new musical phrase / loop together with some added stuff out of it - would it be okay for me to legally sell this within a loop/sample-collection/sample-player VSTi? i´m still confused about all that sample rights and stuff.

i assume you cant copyright just one single shot bongo sound for example? or am i wrong here?

i would love to know that - doesn anyone has ideas?
do i have to go out and sample for e.g. a bongo myself ?

The license for many of the SoundsOnline.com sets allow for the creation of for-resale loops if your work has 3 or more independent lines happening and no single sound is ever in isolation. Read the fine print, though, as it sure would be a stick up the keester to have to defend a mistake. There's a page somewhere on their site that deals with this issue and they offer to examine the work and approve it before you publish.

really?

[Shane Sanders]

really?

Yep. This is a quote staight off their site. They define the word "loop" to mean "sample" elsewhere on the site.

Music or Production Library Use

If you are a music or production library composer/producer using our 'loops' (compositions that contain a combination of sound samples that can be repeated to form a continuous piece of music), the following terms apply -
(1) Loops must be used in a musical context with at least two other instruments that contribute significantly to the composition.
(2) The entire loop cannot be left exposed at any time in the composition.
(3) If you have any doubts a composition meets this criteria, you may submit it to licensing@eastwestsounds.com for written approval.
(Please do not send audio or MP3 files, send us a link to your composition on your web server.)
NOTE: These terms apply to all East West and Quantum Leap products and most third party products sold from this site. If you are in any doubt about a product you intend purchasing, please send an email to licensing@eastwestsounds.com.
NOTE: The exception to this restriction is 'multi-sampled instruments', where users play all of the notes (for example, a multi-sampled piano library).

[tee boy]

Sounds like you'd be best running any use of their sounds past them before releasing the derivative product.

They also say:

"you cannot use the sounds to make another Sample CD"

http://www.soundsonline.com/licenseinfo.shtml


So I would be careful if you were thinking of using a load of Eastwest samples to make a loops CD.

[sonicfire]

Yes, that sounds like i could easily run into trouble - so better not.

[eduardo_b]

i assume you cant copyright just one single shot bongo sound for example? or am i wrong here?

This sort of question shows up frequently, and the answer is there is no definitive answer. Basically, the likelihood that someone would successfully identify highly modified sounds as being theirs is close to zero. The shorter the sample, the closer to zero. The more obscure the song with the sample, the less likely this will ever be a problem. It's when a song containing a sample (or samples) appears to actually be making money that anyone really cares and pays attention, and then only because they want some of that money themselves.

The watermark thing is not even on a the radar. Can't be done, and any attempt will be destroyed by sampling and modifying snippets of the original.

As greedy as copyright holders can be (and more often than not it's the record companies we're talking about), they cannot actually hunt down and find but a fraction of samples used in other works because the sample has to be quite distinctive for it to be identifiable.

As for how right or wrong using samples is, I think all the legal attention that samples get is a sign of a culture more concerned with money than creative freedom and the process of sharing that is traditionally part of this. The history of the arts is about building on the works of others, and there's a huge difference between copying someone else's work as opposed to using elements of it within a new work.

[Colonel Flashback]

@sonicfire: i think Zero-G allows the use of their products to produce sample CDs (don't know about the details though)

[syncopated_silence]

I'm sure if it's only a bongo sound it won't be so noticeable, most sound the same anyways.. as in it's a bongo sound!?
If anything ever did come up.. who's to say you didn't do it yourself? Who's to say you didn't sample a bongo that was funnily enough the exact make as the one you're ripping? The exact preasure, tone, so on... so if they can't prove that it wasn't, how can they prove that you ripped it?
Everyone did it before and still does it anyways... look at all those drum'n'bass cd's with chopped up breaks.
And that Prodigy Experience cd... how can you not sample from that when half of those samples or more aren't even cleared.

[james0tucson]

Hi folks!

I have a simple question - when i, lets say take a single simple bongo/conga sound from somewhere, modify it a bit and create a complete new musical phrase / loop together with some added stuff out of it - would it be okay for me to legally sell this within a loop/sample-collection/sample-player VSTi? i´m still confused about all that sample rights and stuff.

i assume you cant copyright just one single shot bongo sound for example? or am i wrong here?

i would love to know that - doesn anyone has ideas?
do i have to go out and sample for e.g. a bongo myself ?

The license for many of the SoundsOnline.com sets allow for the creation of for-resale loops if your work has 3 or more independent lines happening and no single sound is ever in isolation. Read the fine print, though, as it sure would be a stick up the keester to have to defend a mistake. There's a page somewhere on their site that deals with this issue and they offer to examine the work and approve it before you publish.

really?

It's interesting that they try to set license terms, but if they actually tried to make the case in court, they would have a lot of trouble doing it.

I love this, which is merely a non-sequitur statement, and is NOT a contract clause:


"Many of these cases have resulted in multi-million dollar awards to the producer, and ruined the reputation and future job prospects of the composer. It is simply not worth using the sounds 'illegally'."

I am sure I would not do business with anyone whose understanding of copyright, and how rights are granted and reserved, is this poor. (Notice they claim generically that "multi-million dollar awards" have resulted. If there are a handful of such cases recorded, I'm sure none of them had this *particular* producer as plaintiff!

Some of their "have your cake and eat it too" ideas would evaporate very quickly if they tried to make a claim against someone who had paid them for their product and used them in a composition. Owning a copyright does not make one dictator of the world. The user has express and implicit rights, and some of them cannot be taken away by mere licenses of attachment. (An individually signed and notarized contract between the parties could go much further... but I don't get the impression that every sale on SoundsOnline.com is individually negotiated with specific contracts on each sale!)

The people the SoundsOnline folks *wish* they could sue, are risk averse, and besides that, do their orchestral recordings with musicians who have (individually signed) "work for hire" contracts anyway...

Thanks for the heads up on these morons. However good their product quality may be, they are in no danger of catching me at their till.

[tee boy]

@sonicfire: i think Zero-G allows the use of their products to produce sample CDs (don't know about the details though)

Im pretty sure they dont mate. I dont know of any sample developer who openly allows their content to be used in derivative products, atleast without specific consent.

But it does get very tricky. Many soundware companies include illegally sampled material on their products, and then try to dictate what end users can and cant do. Some of the illegal samples that I have discovered on MAJOR releases made me feel pretty sick.

So I wouldnt get to concerned about this single bongo sample. No one is going to sue you for that. Just be careful though, as they are within their rights to take action if you redistribute any of their content.

[Colonel Flashback]

taken from here: http://www.zero-g.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=40

Can I use these samples to make 'Music Libraries'?
YES, unlike some Soundware companies, this is allowed with Zero-G products. The samples have to be used within a musical context, however, and cannot be presented isolated or 'solo-ed'. So, for the purposes of creating so called 'library music' clips or 'production music' clips intended for commercial exploitation, the included sound samples may be used 'in combination' within musical compositions. For such usage, any rhythm loop samples (which Zero-G regards as being musical clips in themselves) must also be combined with other types of samples or sounds to effectively form a new composition, rather than simply being looped. If in doubt, please email us! - info@zero-g.co.uk

[tee boy]

Music libraries are not the same as sample libraries. Library music is like premade compositions to be licensed for media. Samples are considered to be original audio recordings.

This is why they state that you can use the sounds in library music, provided that it is not expressed in isolation.

[Colonel Flashback]

oops, thanks for the clarification

[SampleStream]

Would you purchase samples that gave you the right to manipulate further with a ‘license you pay’ to entitle you to distribute and sell altered sample based works that you make, like loops, presets within other tools whose function is sample derived?

Ie if you cannot sample it yourself – but have the tools and skills to further manipulate the sounds into something better or more obscure – would you pay for those samples that give you ‘peace of mind’ that the original product is genuine and that you won't get sued for selling altered works?

I ask this as its something I could very easily produce and make available – original samples with the right to manipulate and sell on in other tools and as loops.

If there is an interest I may change my focus on commercial samples that I make.

[tee boy]

I have often pondered such a concept, yes. Not sure if it would work or not, but I do like the idea of buying in 'raw materials'. Small time sound developers dont always have the means to collect sufficient quality studio and field recordings, so I think there is certain a need for this.

Problem is, Id bet the market is minute. Most people just want fully produced samples, and then there are alot who record their own source material. Not sure if the is anything to be made with this idea.