KVR Audio

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:25 pm

freeztar wrote:
Hink wrote: dunder...balanced is not better... but a balanced cable will not change signal, only cancell some noise
Hence better eh?

when there's a problem...if there is no ground loop issue it will sound exactly the same....this too comes up 'bout once a year and it surprises me that it's not understood...but let me ask you this...can you point me to a guitar with balanced outputs? (variax not included)...if it made the guitar sound better everyone would have a balanced output...my outs are trs, but that's because the ring turns the battery on and off...

freeztar · Post by **freeztar** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:34 pm

Hink wrote:
freeztar wrote:
Hink wrote: dunder...balanced is not better... but a balanced cable will not change signal, only cancell some noise
Hence better eh?
when there's a problem...if there is no ground loop issue it will sound exactly the same....this too comes up 'bout once a year and it surprises me that it's not understood...but let me ask you this...can you point me to a guitar with balanced outputs? (variax not included)...if it made the guitar sound better everyone would have a balanced output...my outs are trs, but that's because the ring turns the battery on and off...

OK Mr. Exception!!

But seriously....
I run unbalanced all the way...no probs here to speak of...
Thank god I'm not running 100' of cables....

nuisance sonore · Post by **nuisance sonore** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:45 pm

Hink wrote: and yes the averagae guitar cable loses sisgnal starting at about 6 feet (2 meters)

How much thought? Anything significant or just theorical?

Here's a chart for typical speakers cable, similar?

Code: Select all

Signal loss in a 100 foot typical speaker cable:

WIRE GAUGE    Speakers impedence
 (AWG)	   4 ohm    8 ohm     16 ohm
   
#10	     0.44 dB   0.22 dB   0.11 dB
#12	     0.69 dB   0.35 dB   0.18 dB
#14	     1.07 dB   0.55 dB   0.28 dB
#16	     1.65 dB   0.86 dB   0.44 dB
#18	     2.49 dB   1.33 dB   0.69 dB

Even if Monster cable were to, magically and through intervention of the spirit world, reduce those figure by half I would hardly consider this significant.

deaf dunderkwac · Post by **deaf dunderkwac** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:08 pm

uh... where do I go wrong when trying to depart some information.
I'm not going deep enuff. The Gibson Les Paul recording version did have balanced output, but lets stay on topic. The 'standard' guitar used high impedence, pick-ups. Hink's guitar are modifyed with on-board preamps. The pre-amps have 2 functions:
1 they amplify the signal to a higher output level
2 they provide a voltage-source output (low impedence or 40 to 100 ohms).

So, I'm talking about Hink's guitar in my first responce.
Mine (and most of yours, I imagine) are not blessed with on-board pre-amps, and they have a very high-impedence output. (50,000 to 100,000 ohms on the average)
For proper transmission of this signal without too much corruption of the (limited) frequency respounce it needs to be loaded by a higher-impedence pre-amp. (10x or 1 meg or higher is what most manufacturers used)
The high impedence of the signal transmission (wiring) causes all sorts of funny electrical things to happen. It's best to keep such wiring as short as possible.

I don't wish to carry-on about balanced signals and guitar-wiring almost always (never say never) uses unbalanced output wiring.
I'm just saying that Hink's particular guitars that are modified with active electronics can drive a long crappy piece of wire with less problems then an average guitar with monster (or any other high-buck, well made cable)

the end

Vocalvoodoo · Post by **Vocalvoodoo** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:28 pm

Hink wrote:Well it was bound to happen, I have a broken cable...GC wont replace it...we at Mars did in fact just replace it..I sent an email on xmas...got a notification that it had been received, then someone sent me an email asking for my address last week...no response since.

I just got off the phone with them...yes the policy has changed, you now have to get a return auth. You have to send it to them and then it gets replaced (I'm gonna mark it to see if the same one gets returned fixed or replaced)..okay that's not how it was when I was selling it, the cables quality are good enough that they last a long time so I wonder how many of the thousands of dollars worth of cables I sold broke and those customers are calling me a liar.

Of course I said "I'm not paying for shipping"...so they are sending me a label (I'm taking this to the extreme to see how long it takes)...so the cable broke on the 21st of december...I'm gonna see how long it takes for a return...if I have it by Feb, I'll be content. (which seeing how it use to be walk into the store and they will replace it on the spot is being quite fair)...I do wonder if it's a GC thing as well (TBH to not have to go into that den of theives, GC, is worth the wait)

However I see red flags...why didn't they tell people about the policy change? Why didn't the guy who sent me the email asking for my address just tell me the truth? Why is the no questions asked, no hassle warranty such a pain in the ass?

I am also sending this link to them...lets see if they care enough to respond here...so far no apology has been issued, just excuses.

So this could be the final word on Monster Cable, as many of you know I have stood firm in support of Monster cable...it's good, but it's big selling point is the warranty...we'll see..I do not have a problem with having to wait a couple weeks..I have plenty of cables...but it should not cause me anxiety, aggravations or even shipping costs...I still stand firm on the law suit thing...but I wonder if a company I believe in is pulling a Numark and grasping at loopholes...time will tell...will I stay a customer...yes if I get my cable back by Feb 1st.

FWIW treat me right and I'm a great customer, treat me with deception and you'll have nightmares by the time I'm done..we'll see Monster Cable, put your money with your mouth is (that last part is in case someone does read this from monster)

Wierd. I JUST returned a Monster cable to GC with no problem. But I compared that new Monster mic cable to a Mogami cable, and the Mogami left it in the dirt!

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:57 pm

did you buy the cables recently?....you can see one reply that came from monster said that after the stores return policy expires you have to go direct to MC...

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:01 pm

dunder wrote:uh... where do I go wrong when trying to depart some information.
I'm not going deep enuff. The Gibson Les Paul recording version did have balanced output, but lets stay on topic. The 'standard' guitar used high impedence, pick-ups. Hink's guitar are modifyed with on-board preamps. The pre-amps have 2 functions:
1 they amplify the signal to a higher output level
2 they provide a voltage-source output (low impedence or 40 to 100 ohms).

So, I'm talking about Hink's guitar in my first responce.
Mine (and most of yours, I imagine) are not blessed with on-board pre-amps, and they have a very high-impedence output. (50,000 to 100,000 ohms on the average)
For proper transmission of this signal without too much corruption of the (limited) frequency respounce it needs to be loaded by a higher-impedence pre-amp. (10x or 1 meg or higher is what most manufacturers used)
The high impedence of the signal transmission (wiring) causes all sorts of funny electrical things to happen. It's best to keep such wiring as short as possible.

I don't wish to carry-on about balanced signals and guitar-wiring almost always (never say never) uses unbalanced output wiring.
I'm just saying that Hink's particular guitars that are modified with active electronics can drive a long crappy piece of wire with less problems then an average guitar with monster (or any other high-buck, well made cable)

the end

not only do I have pre-amps, but also active pick-ups...I'm curious about the balanced les paul...which model...the bb king es is stereo out, not balanced...I'm wondering if the paul was the same....though in all my years of retail I have never seen a guitar with balanced outputs...I want to learn more about this les paul...

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:03 pm

nuisance sonore wrote:
Hink wrote: and yes the averagae guitar cable loses sisgnal starting at about 6 feet (2 meters)

How much thought? Anything significant or just theorical?

Here's a chart for typical speakers cable, similar?
Code: Select all
Signal loss in a 100 foot typical speaker cable:

WIRE GAUGE    Speakers impedence
 (AWG)	   4 ohm    8 ohm     16 ohm
   
#10	     0.44 dB   0.22 dB   0.11 dB
#12	     0.69 dB   0.35 dB   0.18 dB
#14	     1.07 dB   0.55 dB   0.28 dB
#16	     1.65 dB   0.86 dB   0.44 dB
#18	     2.49 dB   1.33 dB   0.69 dB
Even if Monster cable were to, magically and through intervention of the spirit world, reduce those figure by half I would hardly consider this significant.

you're right and tbh I am quite anal about this stuff and I doubt the difference is enough to matter...but you can not compare speaker and sheilded cables (you shoul never use a coax cable between a head and cab)...

deaf dunderkwac · Post by **deaf dunderkwac** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:04 pm

they made it in the 60s and not for long...
I thought they did a re-issue in the 70s, but I'm to lazy to look it up right now. (i.e. bizzy)

nuisance sonore · Post by **nuisance sonore** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:45 pm

Hink wrote:
but you can not compare speaker and sheilded cables

Hence the interrogation mark after "similar" as I have no data (that I can trust anyway) on anything else.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:48 pm

nuisance sonore wrote:
Hink wrote:
but you can not compare speaker and sheilded cables
Hence the interrogation mark after "similar" as I have no data (that I can trust anyway) on anything else.

well I can't answer completely objectively, but it would seem sheilded should lose less...

deaf dunderkwac · Post by **deaf dunderkwac** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:49 pm

ok... checked with my friend and vintage guitar collector...
Gison made a 'recording' version of the Les Paul and their bass guitar.
I remember doing a session where the guitarist had a Les Paul recording version with both an xlr and a phone plug output.
The guitarist didn't want me to take the output of the xlr direct, but I wouldn't have anyway, as I was more interested in micing up his amp.

curious thing a memory is...

deaf dunderkwac · Post by **deaf dunderkwac** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:33 pm

Hink wrote:
nuisance sonore wrote:
Hink wrote:
but you can not compare speaker and sheilded cables
Hence the interrogation mark after "similar" as I have no data (that I can trust anyway) on anything else.
well I can't answer completely objectively, but it would seem sheilded should lose less...

about this one. Shielded, or screened cable has a lot of capacitance when compared to a twin lead wire. Also the inner conductor of a screened cable is rarely larger then 22 gage wire. In the interest of transferring power from your amp to your speaker cab, a short length (less then a couple of feet) of screened cable wouldn't make a big difference, but because of the increased capacitance, it could cause some vintage amps to become more unstable then they were in the first place (i.e they would break into oscillation easily)

If you run your cabinet further from the head, it's best to use larger diameter cable (follow the charts)
rules of thumb (this is more applicable to PA systems BTW):
less then 50' 16 -14 gage
up to 100' 12 gage
more then that 10 gage (or consider moving your amp a bit closer

)

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:06 am

well. I just got the strangest call from monster cable...to go into detail would take too long...but if you read the responses I posted here from monster cable it would seem we had worked it out...now I feel like I've been put on trial...I don't know if they are still sending labels or not...I'll wait a few days...then if I still care and they don't show up I might pay the 3 or 4 bux to send them two cables...I stress might...what an absolutely shitty way I was treated...he was shocked when I asked why I should pay to ship it...but when I bought it, when they trained me, it was "bring it into any store"...now the retailers don't like that so I have to ship it to them...but folks this guy sounded like he was wasted...he made no sense and was really pompous and obnoxious...the idea of breaking a cable, going up the street and getting a new cable was great...the idea of ever having to call these people again is enough for me not to ever buy from them again....this warranty is the biggest pain since numark gave me a hard time...even beats gateway last year...they compromised...the kicker was "you know that model was discontinued so you will actually be getting the new ones"....like I should drop to my knees and thank them for keeping half their promise.

I really hope monster cable reads this...as much as I have supported them in the past and as much as I believe the suits are urban myths. The treatment I recieved was an insult, I apologize to anyone who bought a cable because of my suggestion. The cables are awesome, but imo the company's return policy is designed to frustrate you....2 weeks and we finally get it straightened out so I can have the cables back in another two weeks is total bullshit and a complete breach of contract...so Monster Cable goes on my ever growing list of good companies gone bad.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:07 am

btw dunder, if you get to close to a tube amp the large transformer will get picked up by the guitar...catch 22

Monster Cable I have changed my mind!!!!!!!