playing with real musicians is hard

[IIRs]

No, that's what the click-track is for.

You have no soul, bonehead!

[tetraplan]

That still isnt a yes or a no.

"The drummer is always in time" seems pretty clear to me.

Everyone must keep time with eachother, but the drummer is the main 'timing point/source', It isnt a singers job to be the one that the other band members look to for time -in a regular band set up that is.

What does "regular band set up" mean?

It COULD be his/her job, of course it could, but how often do u look to the singer to get into time? Perhaps some people do, i'd just find it strange that they would.

Why do you find it strange?

"What does the drummer do when two other members change speeds independently? Which one does he follow?"

Does it matter? If so, why?

Well IMO the objective of a band is to keep some level of coherance, and to me, and in the band experiances I have been in, it has always been the drummer that i look to (and the other members do too). Also, with the music I play, the idea is not to speed up or slow down (noticably) - i believe part of being a rock/pop drummer is to keep a fairly constant tempo.

Isn't that limiting?

Groet, Erik

[WoJ]

Why so many questions?

Fine, my turn...

"The drummer is always in time" seems pretty clear to me.

- Sorry to be pedantic, but you stated that the drummer is in time and to me that didnt sound like u meant he kept the time for the band, jsut that he was in time himself.

What does "regular band set up" mean?

- To me it would be a rock group set up, at minimum a drummer, guitarist/keyboard player, bassist, and then possibly a singer, another guitarist etc


Why do you find it strange?

- To me singers are only there to provide a melody and unless thier melody is rather syncopated I'd have trouble playing in time to them. If i were playing guitar with a singer id want the singer to be in time with me as I'd be the "rhythmical" source.

"What does the drummer do when two other members change speeds independently? Which one does he follow?"
Does it matter? If so, why?

- Not my statement but i'll answer anway...He shouldnt follow anybody, thats my point. Unless one of them has specificaly stated that they want everyone else to speed up/slow down when they do every1 should follow the drummer's timing.

Quote:
Well IMO the objective of a band is to keep some level of coherance, and to me, and in the band experiances I have been in, it has always been the drummer that i look to (and the other members do too). Also, with the music I play, the idea is not to speed up or slow down (noticably) - i believe part of being a rock/pop drummer is to keep a fairly constant tempo.

Isn't that limiting?

- I suppose it is yes, but with rock/pop music i dont see the need to speed up or slow down, it adds another unneeded element to a piece. If i wanted to experiment then yea id let tempo alter, but for me when not experimenting there is no need to change an existing 'format' for rock/pop arrangments. The melodic side of things is enough to focus on.

WoJ

[Stupid American Pig]

Ive found that sequencing music by programming is one of the most tedious, boring and uninspiring ways to make music ever. I get WAY more of a rush by playing a nice groove with others than I get staring at a monitor...

And hink- let the tempo breathe, take off when you want, then slow it back down...

[Hink]

if I go off key during a solo I put all of it on me, it was my job not to...not the bands job to follow...if the drummer goes off track why shouldn't it be on him?

You are absolutely correct! In your case, this is the way it is.

hmmm....in my case?...how many bands have you been in?....you state the ideal situation...what bands have you been in that is ideal? I think you've missed all my points, missed the point of the title....this is the point where I say...can I please hear some f your music...or your band's? I really think you're so far off base you're standing under the goal post.

The post "playing with real musicians is hard"....my post..."after working with drum machines and sequencers for so long I find it hard to work some drummers"...then you go off on a tangent that is based on an unrealistic idealism.

Let me make this simple

I write a song, I play riff a...it has a beginning, and an ending...both most be on time before going to riff b...if the drummer, while I'm playing a progression, goes in and out of time and is not predictable, the part I'm playing could reach it's resolution to soon or not at all....it is the drummers job to maintain that...not me to alter my previous written part to fit is mistakes...frankly if he can't do that then I say "I'm sorry, this isn't working"...just like in my life I have been in bands that did not feel I fit their style and the same thing has happened too me.

I did not say all drummers, I did say that I find it hard because of how much time I have spent with strict tempo...I really want to hear this magic band of yours that speeds up, slows down, and yet are so amazing that they can read the rest of the bands mind and keep it tight.

I'm sorry but when bands have to adjust to any members timing it sounds sloppy, not tight. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this, I believe professional musicians should be up to certain standards. Being use to the timing being accurate is not a flaw as you seem to keep pointing to, it's part of the formula for a tight band.

[Cordelia]

I agree, the most intense musical moments of my life have definitely been while playing live.
I hear what you're saying, Hink. Whatever the theories about what a drummer's role should be, to me it's all about feel. When I play with a drummer who has a good sense of tempo and groove, I get a feeling of freedom, I can take off in so many directions, my playing improves. When I play with a drummer who follows, the tempo can really start to drag. They are listening to me and so are playing on the back side of the beat, if I try to lay back at all, they slow down, etc... It feels bad, claustrophobic, like someone walking too close behind you stepping on your heels.

[Hink]

Ive found that sequencing music by programming is one of the most tedious, boring and uninspiring ways to make music ever. I get WAY more of a rush by playing a nice groove with others than I get staring at a monitor...

And hink- let the tempo breathe, take off when you want, then slow it back down...

when a quarterback let's loose a long pass it's a timing play...the receiver isn't down field when the qb lets loose the pass...it's up to him to time the pass to get there when the receiver is, just as it is the receivers job to get there at the time the pass does.

I have some tight progressions (progressions that timing differences can change the feel), if the drummer gets to the end of the progression before I do, I get flustered...sorry you don't see that...maybe that's why I dont search out bands anymore...I expect the other musicians to do their part and I'll do mine...if you're just jamming that's different, but it still is frustrating when a drummer lacks consistancy...that's why bands rehearse...to get tight

[Hink]

thank you cordelia, you understand what I'm saying...

[Pouckypluysch]

As a drummer, I think it's keeping the band grooving rahter than keeping the time that's important. When playing with other musicians, interaction is a musical factor of great relevance; it seems to become an instrument in itself. When one of the bandmembers changes the tempo, all the other bandmembers will respond to that; preferrably in the most musical manner. Dependent on the music and the interaction between the band members, following the tempo change might be most suitable, but it might as well be better to keep the tempo.

I like playing with loops, though. It incorporates a whole different type of interaction, but the songs that work well with loops, generally benefit from a more even tempo. And my grooves sound different, and often have better impact when I use loops.

[Hink]

my guess is that a few people here haven't done much session work...

isn't the groove completely dependant on the timing and the tempo there of?

[Diek]

What's hard is learning and practizing music, because that's not music itself. Playing with other people use to be gratifying in the sense you're into the music and connecting with the others in a level you can't explain if you have not experienced. It's not about tempo, nor harmony, nor melody, but about MUSIC, a whole that's quite more than the adding of the parts.

In the other hand, playing with other people can be a real and absolute pain, and unfortunately that's the more common situation. There use to be egos, external pressures and other sorted questions that get you so far of the main goal; try to make music.

Making music alone it's also very gratifying but in other different way. Anyway we're not talking about here.

[Cabinfever]

The funniest thing I find when jamming is, after a good 10 or 15 minute run you stop and say you liked the guitarist's riff/progression, to which the reply is that they liked your line and was trying to follow you !

The way such sessions expand, with each musician pulling & pushing, breaking out into a new line, taking some of the other musos with them, then merging back, and all the while trying to judge whether the 'move' has been sucessful, is very interesting psychology.

[Hink]

I actually have the perfect example to explain my point and didn't point it out...the song that plays when you click my sig or www is sleeping giant...this song was written in a night on five tracks when I got a synth with an arp...I loved it and created sleeping giant from it.

As an instrumental I'm going to use the term "chorus" loosely here, and define it as the break that repeats itself after each verse...notice that the drums hold tight, the guitar and the bass start the descending part together, but the guitar goes up and starts the progression again before the bass the second time and it keeps that way...the song is fairly old now...on just soundclick I have close to 8000 plays of that song...not too mention the countless internet radio stations that play it, funender, new grounds, scores of cds sent out to friends and my always having it on hand when I worked retail...it sems to be my most popular song (because my singing is not that great I suspect) I would guess it's been heard no less then 10,000 times.

But no one ever pointed this out...not once...when I first worked out I did this without thinking, when listening to it I noticed it...when laying down the final guitar track (which was a one take, not first take, but a one take) that was important to the "chorus" to stick to that because it is the groove...if a drummer follows my straying from the path (while still in time) the whole groove will change. It works well enough to have never been noticed because at the end all the parts meet and it resolves nicely imo...

[Morgaxx]

10,001 times now...

[Pouckypluysch]

isn't the groove completely dependant on the timing and the tempo there of?

It's more dependant on the timing than on the tempo, I think. It's possible to keep a groove working even when the tempo is floating.

But then again, steady timing is easier with a steady tempo. To get that, all band members should keep a steady tempo, not only the drummer.