Upgrade FL or Buy energyXT?

[arke]

- I've got my individual drum samples routed to separate mixer tracks, with up to two non-auxiliary inserts, one of them being an EQ which could be handled fine by the Orion EQ about half of the time. Can I do something like that in Orion as well?

Just use as many 4xOut DrumRacks as you need. usually it works really well because you can route all your hats/cymbals through the same out and if you're into layering things liek snares you can put those out through a single channel. I rarely need more than one.

Oh, very nice, very nice ... I completely overlooked that.

- My master track has 5 non-auxiliary inserts (some for just overall stuff and some for global automated effects).

BandFX/MultiFX will not only give you all the inserts you need but will also give you flexibility in how they are applied that is unmatched by any other host.

Hmm damn ... Reason could do it, FL could do it (even better since v6), but it seems lots easier to do in Orion ...

- I know visuals aren't important but I do like to see whats going on (maybe because it really helps, maybe because my ears aren't as trained as other peoples, such as yours), and thus I have two plugins, one is a frequency analyzer (Inspector), one is an oscilloscope (smexoscope from smartelectronix). I guess I can keep convention by always putting all my effects into a container in the first insert slot and visualization into the second insert slot as needed. Guess there isn't an easier way? (not that its hard)

Sounds like a good plan to me.

- Slicing of recorded patterns ... this has become pretty central (record 64 bars, chop it up, put the good parts in a pattern ... much faster than recording or step sequencing individual patterns)

Just use the lasso tool to copy/paste the sections you want to combine into a new pattern.

Thats what I was doing before, but the new FL way of doing it is heaps faster. I just take the slice tool, point it at the pattern, and it will split that pattern into two patterns around that point. Also, I can remerge in about 2 seconds (ctrl+drag to select, right click, "merge")

- And, the pattern automation for parameters that aren't on the synth itself. This project has 17 patterns just for automation, most of which get used more than once.

There is song level automation for all effects and mixer paramters as well as for all the things with pattern level automation. The only downside is that you can only copy/paste a whole automation track. Automation is definitely an area where ORION is quite weak but its not something I need more than the absolute most basic implementation of so it never gets in my way. I played around with eXT's automation clips or envelopes or whatever they are and it is just another over-complicated way of doing something that I usually record in real-time and never touch again.

FL has Automation Clips too, and I never use them because the normal automation is much more convenient.

Maybe for Orion v7 or whatever we can expect pattern-level automation for inserts in its mixer slot too! That would make me consider Orion even more. Dammit, I can't afford to buy another host, I need to stop this

- I guess the weird window semantics I'd just have to get used to, just like I got used to FL's lack of drag-and-drop to move patterns or the weird way the Step Sequencer window moves about.

Its just a matter of a simple shift or perception. Look at each instrument/effect in the same way as an image that you open in Photoshop and it works exactly as you'd expect.

Yup, thats gotta be trivial to get used to (especially if you're used to the FL Step Sequencer )

(btw, whens Angelkiller coming out?)

It might be a while because I am still not happy with several aspects of it.

I loved the beta because of the mono mode, I don't think any of your other still available KiLLERS have something similar.

The Ideal host for me would be a mix between Orion, Reason, and FL. Patterns, which can be named, one track per instrument, automatic mixer track per instrument, infinite additional ones as needed, rack-semantics like Reason, ability to just go in and change one note in one instance like in Reason, as well as the ability to go in and change one note which reflects in all the others too. I think you'd like it too.

I don't see any need for named patterns nor for extra mixer tracks nor the ability to edit multiple patterns in that way, as opposed to pitching every pattern for a generator [or a whole song minus drums] up or down in one go [which is a feature I use a lot].

The named patterns aren't essential (for things other than drums I don't usually use more than 5 per instrument anyway), but its nice.

I do like being able to edit patterns in both ways. In FL, I have to explicitly create a new pattern, and change that. I'd like to have it do that automagically when I go into "linear edit" mode (as opposed to "pattern edit" mode).

I have a feeling this is gonna turn into another "Storm" thread

[Carbonboy]

Recently, I've had my eyes opened to the motivations of IL. The way they released the boxed version to brick&mortar outlets without doing a tiny thing for the users like releasing a beta version, that really sent me a strong, ugly message. It certainly made me start thinking about what other hosts may be out there. When I have those thoughts, I wonder if I might be better off with a little more proficiency using eXT, and I also think of Orion, mainly because you say it's so good. But then, when I try a demo and it just crashes on me, I tend to lose interest.

james0tucson, I think you protest too much and have made a few assumptions to many.

First, you did get a free update (what about a week later?), is that such a big deal?

You did get access to the manual on loop-talk about 1 month before anyone else saw it.

I saw JMC say that the issue with GuitarCenter was a timing stuff-up. They were trying to launch to loop-talk but it just didn't work out as planned. Indeed, IL found out when a user posted on loop-talk that it was in GC. They didn't know.

I think you are being a bit self righteous, it was just a week (or two), and it's just a music program and you did get what IL promised you when you entered into the license agreement...lifetime free updates.

Carb.

[JMC]

I've had my eyes opened to the motivations of IL. The way they released the boxed version to brick&mortar outlets without doing a tiny thing for the users like releasing a beta version.

We always aim to release the boxed & online versions more or less simultaneously. This is not an easy task considering we have to press the CDs & boxes over a month before they get to the shops. Normally the boxes get shelved about 2 weeks later than the online release.

When we pressed the FL 6.0 CDs in November we were still finishing a lot of stuff (like the DirectWave Importer, the DirectWave & FPC direct download modules, …) that didn’t really affect the boxed versions (as less than 10% of the boxed owners ever comes to our site and DirectWave is not included in the Producer Edition & Fruityloops Editon boxes).

If you really want to believe that we'd deliberately release to the shops (where we take about 20%) earlier than online (where we receive everything but the 3%-5% credit card costs) there’s not much we can do about it & I guess we’ll always be that big & evil empire (of 4,5 people). In the other case just enjoy your free FL6 update.

If you still believe this is all a marketing scam please take the time to see what *has* been included for free here :

http://www.flstudio.com/documents/103.html

Other than the dozens of new features (like multiple midi inputs, slicing patterns, revamped sample browser, ...) here are just a few new addons :

The new mixer (now unlocked for Fruityloops users as well) :

EQUO :

Multi band compressor :

Delay Bank :

Updated FPC :

Reeverb 2 :


See ya,

Jmc (FL Studio)

[geoslake]

Its unbelievable to me, FL slicer (or FLS) still doesnt display anything when theres a missing sample !!
I requested this months ago and its very basic, but still, nothing. Not even the slicer channel is displayed in red (like sampler channels), nothing.

I admit its less essential for kids, who probably prefer playing with chrome, but to me...

[JMC]

I admit its less essential for kids, who probably prefer playing with chrome, but to me...

I wouldn't suggest this kind of wording if you ever send food back in a restaurant but I'll ask our developers what can be done about this.

In the meanwhile just be a little causious & carefull when moving samples arround. As FL Studio will search all it's paths it should be possible to retrieve any sample you have in there.

About Chrome : As the idea is to use it with a decent (+3000 lumens) projector I can only say ... you're spoiling your kids.

See ya,

jmc (FL Studio)

[JMC]

Imageline's policy is just bullshit marketing ...

I can only repeat that we still firmly believe that all users should be able to use the functionality they paid for as long as the product is developed.

IMHO it should be illegal to make users pay for bugfixes (what half of any update usually is).

they still make sure that every new version has extra stuff...

Of course we do. We run a business here.

... that you have to pay for.

We never made anyone pay for any updates in the (almost 20) years we've been developing software.

People are free to get additions like DirectWave & Sytrus or upgrade to a higher tier of the software if they want to. With each update they get dozens of new features & fixed absolutely for free.

(Although that's what people like to believe) we clearely state on our website that LifeTime Free Updates does NOT mean they will get everything free from now on.

eXT and ORION give you the whole shebang for nothing.

I have to admit that I haven't been following up on all competitors very closely but I see different program tiers in most other software (I believe Orion used to have a normal & a silver version or something like that but maybe Rich stopped with that).

Anyway I don't see why we should be any different.

See ya,

jmc (FL Studio)

[Carbonboy]

I've had my eyes opened to the motivations of IL. The way they released the boxed version to brick&mortar outlets without doing a tiny thing for the users like releasing a beta version.

We always aim to release the boxed & online versions more or less simultaneously. This is not an easy task considering we have to press the CDs & boxes over a month before they get to the shops. Normally the boxes get shelved about 2 weeks later than the online release.

Actually JMC, you forgot to mention that the situation IS now reversed. There is Version 6.0.5 on-line that is only accessable to registered users.

There has been 6.0.3, 6.0.4 and 6.0.5 so this looks like a community series of Betas to me.

Carb.

[JMC]

There is Version 6.0.5 on-line that is only accessable to registered users.

Not really : They have all been downloadable from the main www.flstudio.com & download pages.

About the releases looking like beta's, we can't win :

- If we don't update the software, we don't care about our users
- If we put up multiple bugfixes, we're accused of letting our users betatest.

See ya,

jmc (FL Studio)

[james0tucson]

For the record, I believe the product is great, well worth the price, and the updates are timely. I attribute the problems I reported to perhaps a cultural aspect of Belgium. My problems were strictly in the area of marketing and customer perception, not with the product itself.

The last message from JMC ("we can't win") illustrates the black and white views that are completely foreign to me. I'm starting to think this might be my only problem -- cultural misunderstandings, when interacting with people from Australia and Belgium, in particular.

Dismiss my opinions if you want, even while you entertain the likes of "Bones" .

[james0tucson]

james0tucson, I think you protest too much and have made a few assumptions to many.

I'm suggesting that IL folks could be slightly softer in their sell and communication, and might reap a significantly higher benefit from customer satisfaction.
You can criticize me for pointing it out, if that makes you feel better. I'm sure it's easier to do a useless thing to criticize me, than it would be to make suggestions to the IL folks that might lead to an improved life for them.

[BONES]

I have to admit that I haven't been following up on all competitors very closely but I see different program tiers in most other software (I believe Orion used to have a normal & a silver version or something like that but maybe Rich stopped with that).
Anyway I don't see why we should be any different.

But you are. When ORION went to v6 all the new stuff was included for free, there was no extra plug-in that users had to pay for if they wanted it. Same with every, single update ever, you get the whole thing in an update, nothing is kept outside to generate extra income. Maybe its because Rich keeps his VSTi development completely separate from ORION where you guys don't but I find Jorgen's and Rich's marketing a lot more up-front than yours. But like I said, its perfectly reasonable to want to generate income [although last time I said that you deregistered me], I just find the way you promote your upgrade policy a little less honest than some others. Obviously you're not gonna change because it works and the majority of users seem to swallow it whole.

[JMC]

I attribute the problems I reported to perhaps a cultural aspect of Belgium.

I can assure you that the fact that the (US based) distribution center of Guitar Center had the boxes on the shelves 2 weeks earlier than expected had little or nothing to do with cultural differences.

On the other hand the fact that customers feel the urge to look for another host because their (free) update comes a couple of days later than they expected goes beyond me (and I hope must be something cultural).

See ya,

jmc (FL Studio)

[Hink]

Of course we do. We run a business here.

very good...you're right...but you know what? We are your customers and some are your potential customers....seems too me without the customers the business isn't worth much...by now you guys have gone through this enough to know how to handle damage control....yet I still see people feeling slighted by IL (whether it's justified or not, matters not)...but you seem to keep being defensive and make excuses, you can predict what your reply will be jmc (and you know I'm not flaming you)...defensiveness and excuses, but not every question gets answered...does something seem out of place there?

TBH jmc, the dialog between you and CB seemed scripted...for the record I think Carbon Boy (and I don't know if he's staff or not, but I think he should be) is better at public relations, at least here at KVR then you. I only mean that constructively, but I think IL should listen to all it's customers...not just the ones you like...

[.jon]

From what I've gathered, IL and jorgen are pretty much the only ones who do the decent thing - to fix the program for free.

james, I've worked with belgians for years, and they are very interesting folks with huge amounts of creativity, and pretty extreme temper. Grand generalisation, of course, but belgian emotions tend to be fast and fierce, in good and bad

[JMC]

But you are. When ORION went to v6 all the new stuff was included for free, there was no extra plug-in that users had to pay for if they wanted it.

Everything that's new in FL6 is absolutely free.

We indeed released DirectWave simultaneously (just as we released Sytrus last year) that can be bought seperately and comes in both FL & VSTi versions so you can use them in any host you like.

I don't see how this misleads our users. Nobody bought FL Studio expecting to get a $179 VSTi synth or a $99 multi sampler for free a couple of months later.

I don't see any differences with Richard offering his own VSTis (I believe he did Hydra, Scorpion and some others). Unless those come with Platinum now like we do in XXL. I wouldn't know as I haven't really been following up on it lately.

Maybe its because Rich keeps his VSTi development completely separate from ORION ...

I wouldn't know : We have www.pluginspot.com for our plugins, www.sytrus.com for Sytrus & are working on www.directwave.com for the sampler. I don't see how much more we can separate it.

See ya,

jmc (FL Studio)