why are most soft synths and effects so expensive?

[droolmaster0]

Let's say you need to make $50,000 a year (poverty level here in Silicon Valley) before taxes to live

f**k! Half the people I know would be paupers. That's roughly what I earn and I know plenty of folk who don't come close to that. Moreover I live a very comfortable life on that kind of money in one of the ten most expensive cities to live in in the world.
In fact, I think the average wage in Australia is around Au$55,000 which is about US$41k.

$50,000 sure ain't much here in San Francisco.

[emdot_ambient]

]If software synths were such a lucrative market, believe me, the big synth manufacturers (Roland, Yamaha, Alesis, et. al.) would be dominating the market.

That's a pretty naive statement. The big hardware manufacturers have a lot more at stake; factories, distribution channels, etc which they could never support if they threw all their expertise away in software packages.

You really think that if someone like Roland could make as much profit off software as they do off hardware that they wouldn't close their factories, fire most of their manufacturing labor, cut their costs and go 100% software? Their distribution channels would benefit them for selling their software (and no doubt hardware controllers), so that investment would stay. What sounds naive to me is your assertion that because a hardware company has investment in factories and labor that they would want to hold onto them even if they could get as much return with less up front cost.

But I don't think they'll abandon their hardware lines because I don't think the software market is anywhere nearly lucrative enough for them to justify it. If it were, they'd dump their expensive hardware lines faster than a US clothing manufacturer could open a cheap labor plant in China.

[emdot_ambient]

...This situation is kind of like car owners bitching about the cost of fuel, when, of the major costs to own a car, fuel is one of the smallest...

Actually that's not what the 2001 Bureau of Labor Statistics Consumer Expenditure Survey showed. The #1 cost in owning a car is the annual car payment. Second to that is gas. Insurance was next and was only about a third the expense that fuel was. Annual maintenance was the next, at less than half the cost of gas. And that's based on 2001 fuel costs, which were almost half of what they are now.

Fair enough, although looking at those numbers, there are obvious regional differences. The average premium in Ontario is $2,383 (CAN$) according to the Consumers' Association of Canada, which is higher as a percentage of the average household income than in most of the US. But, fair enough, I recant the gas analogy.

I was just being a bugger butt picking on your metaphor.

[jmh]

I know we've covered this any number of times. I don't think the "cheap" analysis is any more valid than the "too expensive" one. Unless, of course, you can manage to change my mind.

Hi in here too

Well, at least something got across now. I put it deliberately like that - it's the extreme views both sides possess that gets to me. That, and the generally layman reasoning behind "why it should be cheaper" - from all the commentary I've seen from the "cheap" side, about the only conclusion I've reached so far is that people want things cheaper 'because'. The rest is just weird logic about how anyone purchasing something expensive is misguided in some respect and defensive of one's choice.

Hence the trouble in seeing why everything just should be cheaper

And sorry if I'm lumping you into a pile with a bunch of other people with a generalisation. Despite our opposing views, at least you're actually putting some thoughts into your arguments. It's so much easier to agree to disagree with someone whose comments (at least partially) contain something I can both understand and value.

Regards,

JMH

[soulata]

Let's say you need to make $50,000 a year (poverty level here in Silicon Valley) before taxes to live

f**k! Half the people I know would be paupers. That's roughly what I earn and I know plenty of folk who don't come close to that. Moreover I live a very comfortable life on that kind of money in one of the ten most expensive cities to live in in the world.
In fact, I think the average wage in Australia is around Au$55,000 which is about US$41k.

i earn around 1500$ to 2000$ a month. roughly 25k a year and it really is enough. for now. can't really afford much hw or sw though.

[emdot_ambient]

If the free synths can rival the commercial ones (4 or 5 free synths might easily cover most of the sounds and features of a very good commercial synth), and the supply of free synths is high, it drives down the demand for commercial product and limits what people are willing to spend for it.

If only that were the case. The reality seems to be the opposite. As freeware synths get better and better it drives commercial developers to aim even higher and charge even more. If I can get PolyIblit for free it means that somethign worth paying for has to be infinitely more complex which means it takes more and more time to develop and so the dev charges more money for it. In the sub-$100 category there really aren't many new instruments appearing these days and those that do look terribly overpriced compared to freebies like the aforementioned and Synth1.

Actually it sounds like we're kind of arguing the same thing: that the quality of free synths is in part driving the price of commercial products. I was just taking the simple supply and demand argument that an abundance of high quality cheap/free product will make people less willing to pay high prices for similar commercial product. You take it a step furthe by describing the developer's strategic response to the situation. Which is to create more complex synths because the free synths are overwhelming them in the less complex market.

In any event, the free synth market is contributing to making the software synth market less profitable for commercial developers.

[emdot_ambient]

Let's say you need to make $50,000 a year (poverty level here in Silicon Valley) before taxes to live

f**k! Half the people I know would be paupers. That's roughly what I earn and I know plenty of folk who don't come close to that. Moreover I live a very comfortable life on that kind of money in one of the ten most expensive cities to live in in the world.
In fact, I think the average wage in Australia is around Au$55,000 which is about US$41k.

i earn around 1500$ to 2000$ a month. roughly 25k a year and it really is enough. for now. can't really afford much hw or sw though.

These posts really point illustrate an interesting point . . . it's too easy to forget that we're not all living in the same economic climate. I assume that pricing schemes are more or less derived at by the economic landscape where the developers reside. But their products are sold largely online in the world market. A product that's $100 US sounds pretty damned cheap to me. That's three or four average dinners at a restaurant for me and my wife. But in other parts of the world it's a hell of a lot more.

[emdot_ambient]

Let's say you need to make $50,000 a year. That makes you have to sell around 334 copies at $150 each to make your required annual income!

That also assumes $0 in software development cost, $0 spent on developing a GUI, $0 money spent on creating and maintaining a company web site, $0 cost on support for the product after sale, $0 spent in legal fees and other business expenses, $0 spent taking orders and delivering product, $0 spent on advertising, $0 on time spent creating a user manual . . .

[jackson]

Let's say you need to make $50,000 a year (poverty level here in Silicon Valley) before taxes to live

f**k! Half the people I know would be paupers. That's roughly what I earn and I know plenty of folk who don't come close to that. Moreover I live a very comfortable life on that kind of money in one of the ten most expensive cities to live in in the world.
In fact, I think the average wage in Australia is around Au$55,000 which is about US$41k.

Heh. My microscopic studio apartment is US$899 a month. I don't own a car, so that's not a big deal - my transportation costs run around US$100 a month. Utilities are another US$200 a month. Other debts run about US$400 a month. So.. for me.. that's US$1599 a month in *basic necessities*, up around US$20K a year. Taxes take close to half my income, as well.

Don't move to Silicon Valley - or the U.S.!

And it's worse up here in San Francisco. I'm paying $1500 p/m for a 1 bedroom and it ain't all that and bag of chips. But then, I nearly doubled my pay moving here from Chicago and the job market is remarkable for certain careers.

Music software is dirt cheap compared to other industries. Most of the people on here are amateurs or hobbyists and therefore are not investing moneys earned directly from music income back into their tools. This makes it seem much more expensive than it actually is.

[LiteOn]

These posts really point illustrate an interesting point . . . it's too easy to forget that we're not all living in the same economic climate. I assume that pricing schemes are more or less derived at by the economic landscape where the developers reside. But their products are sold largely online in the world market. A product that's $100 US sounds pretty damned cheap to me. That's three or four average dinners at a restaurant for me and my wife. But in other parts of the world it's a hell of a lot more.

True - and, for instance, Microsoft has been forced to consider that and offered a cheaper Windows license in some Asion country. And MS - like several other big players - has the power to do that.
But a little company (with more of a startup character) has to consider the living costs in their country when setting the price model.

cheers,
LiteOn

[jackson]

Let's say you need to make $50,000 a year. That makes you have to sell around 334 copies at $150 each to make your required annual income!

That also assumes $0 in software development cost, $0 spent on developing a GUI, $0 money spent on creating and maintaining a company web site, $0 cost on support for the product after sale, $0 spent in legal fees and other business expenses, $0 spent taking orders and delivering product, $0 spent on advertising, $0 on time spent creating a user manual . . .

Oh, don't forget tax!

[kovacs]

A product that's $100 US sounds pretty damned cheap to me. That's three or four average dinners at a restaurant for me and my wife. But in other parts of the world it's a hell of a lot more.

Interesting comparison. In Norway, $100 is *one* (maybe two at a cheap place) dinner for my wife and me.

[eduardo_b]

I put it deliberately like that - it's the extreme views both sides possess that gets to me. That, and the generally layman reasoning behind "why it should be cheaper" - from all the commentary I've seen from the "cheap" side, about the only conclusion I've reached so far is that people want things cheaper 'because'. The rest is just weird logic about how anyone purchasing something expensive is misguided in some respect and defensive of one's choice.

I have to believe there's a huge psychological component in this topic, and it affects one's response to pricing. I think the escalating prices for new synths (I mean in relation to previous pricing tiers) is leaving more and more people unable to buy them, or at least without giving up other things to do so (yet another topic ). They want synths -- and just about everything else -- to be cheaper because they have limited discretionary income.

I know people who shop at Walmart even though they disagree with the way that company treats employees and what happens to other retailers and workers in many communities when Sprawlmart arrives. They are not saving all that much by shopping there, but they perceive this will leave them more money for other things -- like maybe soft synths.

I have to agree with you that the cheap "because" mentality is dominant in society as a whole, although it could also just be human nature. But I also think there's a sense of value for money that gets applied along with the cheap factor. They may be linked, but they also may exist separately.

Even if someone can afford a synth, they may or may not feel they are getting enough to justify the cost. I know plenty of people with very good incomes who are conservative about this sort of thing, wanting to feel they paid a fair price for what they bought. Not sure how fair is defined, which is the psychological component I noted earlier.

Which is why I can afford Surge but think it hardly worth the money, and you think it worth every cent but don't have the funds at this time to purchase it (and I truly do feel bad about your circumstance). It certainly demonstrates that human behavior and perception is all over the place.

[Blue Wind Project]

Let's say you need to make $50,000 a year (poverty level here in Silicon Valley) before taxes to live

f**k! Half the people I know would be paupers. That's roughly what I earn and I know plenty of folk who don't come close to that. Moreover I live a very comfortable life on that kind of money in one of the ten most expensive cities to live in in the world.
In fact, I think the average wage in Australia is around Au$55,000 which is about US$41k.

Heh. My microscopic studio apartment is US$899 a month. I don't own a car, so that's not a big deal - my transportation costs run around US$100 a month. Utilities are another US$200 a month. Other debts run about US$400 a month. So.. for me.. that's US$1599 a month in *basic necessities*, up around US$20K a year. Taxes take close to half my income, as well.

Don't move to Silicon Valley - or the U.S.!

WOW...move to another place man...$899.00 a month for a freakin STUDIO APT ??? unbelievable...
I live in Hampton Roads Virginia, not a small
place really..you got Norlfolk, Chesapeake,
Virginia Beach, Newport News..it's a pretty big
place...alot of industry and tech here..I pay
$800.00 a month morgage...$360.00 a month for my
vehicle, $100.00 a month for insurance..and I pay
roughly $200.00 a month in utilities...
and I do just fine on $40,000.00 a year...
and if you would look into the bill being
proposed HR25, and if that gets passed, we would
not pay income taxes anymore..ALL the money you earn,
goes directly into your pocket...and it
is up to the AMERICANS to contact you state
representitives and let them know...either they
support the FAIR TAX HR25, or we will support
another representitive via our vote.

Quite simply, I can usually afford to buy
the $200.00 VSTi, and believe me, I am so
tempted at time to where I have to shut down my
computer...my children are far more importrant to
me than a synth...synths is just a hobby...
but I tell you all this...I recently went into
a music shop and saw a KORG M1 synth...and this
keyboard was $500.00...and what is the
KORG DIGITAL ? like a couple hundred dollars ?
( I don't know the exact price ) and not
only do you get the KORG M1 emulation, but then
you get the Wavestation as well...so with my
M-Audio Kaystation and a host...I could own BOTH
for approx. 1/2 of that Korg M1...

Don't mind me folks...I am an optimist...and yes..
my liqour glass is Half Full

I use to live in California, actually I am native born..and I know the expense of living there, and
that is why I left back in '94...and I have not
looked back..my quality of life in Virginia far
exceeds the oppressive expense of living in California...but we all choose our poison, and
thus we must all live with our desicions.

[SuitcaseOfLizards]

Let's say you need to make $50,000 a year. That makes you have to sell around 334 copies at $150 each to make your required annual income!

That also assumes $0 in software development cost, $0 spent on developing a GUI, $0 money spent on creating and maintaining a company web site, $0 cost on support for the product after sale, $0 spent in legal fees and other business expenses, $0 spent taking orders and delivering product, $0 spent on advertising, $0 on time spent creating a user manual . . .

I was assuming all of these would come out of the whatever is left of the US$50K after taxes and bare living expenses.

SD costs for an indie should be the cost of a compiler, an editor, and a computer. GUI development might be done by the dev themselves, which isn't always a good thing ("programmer art" anyone?) but it's cheap. Cost of website dev. if the dev. does it, is the cost of a Web editor...

I suppose I could post a spreadsheet with the numbers I spent on all that when I was doing indie game development, it was *not* cheap and I was handling almost everything myself (not a good idea), although my (now) ex-wife helped out with some of it for free.