why are most soft synths and effects so expensive?

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emdot_ambient wrote:You really think that if someone like Roland could make as much profit off software as they do off hardware that they wouldn't close their factories, fire most of their manufacturing labor, cut their costs and go 100% software?.
Of course not. That wouuld like expecting GM to decide there's more money in parts and closing all their assempbly lines. It would require a fundamental shift in their business, throwing away what they would see as the biggest part of their expertise to concentrate on something that they probably see as the arse-end of what they do.
But I don't think they'll abandon their hardware lines because I don't think the software market is anywhere nearly lucrative enough for them to justify it.
You don't think Alesis could sell a software-only Ion for the same price as the Micron? They would probably only need to sell tiny fraction as many to be equally profitable but I'm sure they think of themselves as a manufacturing company, even though all that happens off-shore.
emdot_ambient wrote:
woolyloach wrote:Let's say you need to make $50,000 a year. That makes you have to sell around 334 copies at $150 each to make your required annual income!
That also assumes $0 in software development cost, $0 spent on developing a GUI, $0 money spent on creating and maintaining a company web site, $0 cost on support for the product after sale, $0 spent in legal fees and other business expenses, $0 spent taking orders and delivering product, $0 spent on advertising, $0 on time spent creating a user manual . . .
No that assumes that the $50k you need to make a year covers all that, surely? I think I could make a fine tax-free living off interent sales of US$50k a year.
eduardo_b wrote:I think the escalating prices for new synths (I mean in relation to previous pricing tiers) is leaving more and more people unable to buy them,
My problem with the situation is that it drives dev's to make ever more complex instruemnts which I just don't want. No-one is selling the kinds of instruments I would really be interested in any more, they are all freebies and very hit-and-miss.
Even if someone can afford a synth, they may or may not feel they are getting enough to justify the cost. I know plenty of people with very good incomes who are conservative about this sort of thing, wanting to feel they paid a fair price for what they bought. Not sure how fair is defined, which is the psychological component I noted earlier.
That is certainly my situation. I just se that if someone is willing to do really good work and give the results away for free or for a very small price, why should i give my money to another developer who seems to be comparatively greedy? And my host probably has an undue influence on that decision too - if it costs $300 and provides dozens of high quality tools why would I pay half that amount for something that is just a synth? It doesn't make sense and I cannot divorce one thing from the other and say that it is good value in absolute terms.
NOVAkILL : Legion GO, AMD Z1x, 16GB RAM, Win11 | Audient EVO 8 | Lumi Keys | Studio Pro 8
Korg Odyssey, bx-oberhausen, Proxima, PolyMax, GR8, JP6K, Union, Atomika,
Invader 2, Flow Motion, Olga, TRK 01, Thorn, Spire, VG Iron

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here's a very interesting link about supply and demand theory in economy ,(please consider the software market just reacting the same as any other good market) .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

it' s exhaustive and didactic.
a must reed article for the understanding of the subject of this topic i think

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BONES wrote:My problem with the situation is that it drives dev's to make ever more complex instruemnts which I just don't want. No-one is selling the kinds of instruments I would really be interested in any more, they are all freebies and very hit-and-miss.
This is very interesting. By too complex (and thus I assume more costly to buy) do you mean they don't do enough things well or that more specialized instruments offer more because of their narrower focus?
I just se that if someone is willing to do really good work and give the results away for free or for a very small price, why should i give my money to another developer who seems to be comparatively greedy? And my host probably has an undue influence on that decision too - if it costs $300 and provides dozens of high quality tools why would I pay half that amount for something that is just a synth? It doesn't make sense and I cannot divorce one thing from the other and say that it is good value in absolute terms.
Actually, I suppose many people who buy hosts with lots of included tools have little reason to spend even more money on plug-ins unless they perceive added value equal to or greater than the costs. My impression is that those who hang out on KVR are more inclined to spend vastly more on plug-ins, in total, than the cost of the host (or hosts) they own. Some seem completely unfazed at spending $200 for a synth, and own several at that price. I don't see a lot of value for money with some of these, but it's as much personal opinion as anything else.
We escape the trap of our own subjectivity by
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey

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I find I compare products with other similar ones, free & payware.
At the moment i'm looking at the ARtsacoustic reverb & i'm thinking yes it's nice, but is it £130 nice?
It does sound good, it's got a low cpu hit, but the PSP easyverb sounds good also (bit more cpu), & the old faithful sonitus verb sounds pretty damn nice, hardly touches the cpu at all & costs like £35 or so.
So does it sound £95 better than the sonitus? what would that £95 get me (actually it would get me camelspace & camelphat).
I dunno, i'm tempted - but I don't think i'm that tempted.
I hate spending money, i'm very careful with it - I appreciate it after having been both very poor & also reasonably well off (which I squandered) I tend to look for good value.
Comparatively recently quite a few goodies have come out that seem to be priced just that little too high for me to even really think about - but that's just me, even if I was swimming in dosh i'd likely think the same way.

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diverdee wrote:At the moment i'm looking at the ARtsacoustic reverb & i'm thinking yes it's nice, but is it £130 nice?...So does it sound £95 better than the sonitus? what would that £95 get me (actually it would get me camelspace & camelphat).
The question that comes to mind is why the difference in prices for effects meant to do the same thing. Is it the coding that goes into them or is it the presets or banks included...or both. And are they clearly better in terms of quality of sound than those that are free or very modest in price.

After all, if the two you're considering were both £35 you could buy both and still have money left over. Lots of people have said positive things about the ArtsAcoustic reverb and don't seem bothered by the price, but I am skeptical that this has any real meaning in terms of achieving musical goals. If the music is good, listeners will not be thinking how much better the reverb could be. At least I hope not. :)

In the end, it might come down to which is worse: paying more than one is comfortable with for what doesn't seem a significant increase in value or buying the less expensive effect and then wondering if the music would sound better if the more expensive one were available.

The ArtsAcoustic developers decided to price their effect above the market compared to free or low cost reverbs, but below the "professional" reverbs that sell for three times the price or more. If they have enough customers, they made the right choice. If not, they may never recoup their costs.

Personally, I would suggest not buying the more expensive reverb unless you can't get what you want from the one that's a third the price. That way you'd have money left over for another effect...or food. :)
We escape the trap of our own subjectivity by
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey

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james0tucson wrote:I'm surprised the Papens and the Linplugs and the NI's out there haven't gone so far as to make an embedded computer hardware version of a VSTi. Every one of Papen's advertisements indicates the *desire* to do this, since they present their VSTis as though they were three-dimensional hardware. I think it would be awesome if they really did that. Receptor is a good start, but it has to be too many things, so it needs a big power supply, fans, disk drives, etc. A special purpose device, maybe mini-itx and flash memory based, with a specialized control surface and display... man that would be cool.
NI did build a DSP card synth back at the beginning. Generator (Reaktor's predecessor) ran on a DSP card...

ew
A spectral heretic...

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ew wrote:NI did build a DSP card synth back at the beginning. Generator (Reaktor's predecessor) ran on a DSP card...
I don't remember that. I bought Generator when it first came out and it was native (no pun intended). Were there different versions of it?

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John Vulich wrote:
ew wrote:NI did build a DSP card synth back at the beginning. Generator (Reaktor's predecessor) ran on a DSP card...
I don't remember that. I bought Generator when it first came out and it was native (no pun intended). Were there different versions of it?
There must have been, John :? . I wasn't into soft synths at the time, but I remember reading Keyboard's spiel on the European synth industry back in '98 or '99- both Generator and Reaktor were out at the time. Generator had a DSP card, while Reaktor was native. x_bruce also remembers Generator running on a DSP card; that was his intro to NI products.

ew
A spectral heretic...

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JackDark wrote:My philosophy is sell cheap to sell more. Sell 20 copies at $10, you've made $200. Sell 2 copies at $50, you've only made $100. Just the way I think, doesn't mean I'm right...
I don't know if any philosophy is better or not, but there are some problems for really cheap stuff. A friend of mine develops plug-ins for animation software. He used to sell really cheap to get more sales.

But then he ended up with lots of customers that sent emails, asked questions, had hardware issues with their graphics card, etc etc...

He ended up spending many many hours giving support to all those people who bought his plug-in cheap. Then he did some calculations on time spent vs dollars earned, then raised his prices.

If you have a clear statement that you offer no tech support, then the very cheap approach may be fine.

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That is the biggest thing that stops me from charging for any of my plug-ins.
eduardo_b wrote:This is very interesting. By too complex (and thus I assume more costly to buy) do you mean they don't do enough things well or that more specialized instruments offer more because of their narrower focus?
What I mean is that their complexity very quickly starts to get in the way of making music, which is what I want it for. z3ta+ is a great example. Look at how many oscillatotrs, envelopes and LFO's it has. Now look at how many of each 95% of the really good patches use. If Rene made a z3ta Minus with two of each of those things and fit it all on a single page GUI I would happily pay reasonable money, say half the cost of the full version, and I would buy it in a heartbeat.
And having more than about 32 presets starts to get in the way of finding the sound I need so offering a gazillion patches with a synth is a disincentive for me to buy it.
My impression is that those who hang out on KVR are more inclined to spend vastly more on plug-ins, in total, than the cost of the host (or hosts) they own. Some seem completely unfazed at spending $200 for a synth, and own several at that price. I don't see a lot of value for money with some of these, but it's as much personal opinion as anything else.
My impression of those sam epeople is they actually believe that buying the most expensive is the same as buying the best and that it will help them make better music. My experience is that trying to program complex instruments or previewing a million presets to find a sound gets in the way of creativity and so I have no interest in those things. Even FabFilter Twin spoils what is otherwise a decent instrument with 3 times more mod options than any of the presets use, which spill over onto multiple pages, obfuscating the process. Still, its the most tempting buy I've seen in ages.
NOVAkILL : Legion GO, AMD Z1x, 16GB RAM, Win11 | Audient EVO 8 | Lumi Keys | Studio Pro 8
Korg Odyssey, bx-oberhausen, Proxima, PolyMax, GR8, JP6K, Union, Atomika,
Invader 2, Flow Motion, Olga, TRK 01, Thorn, Spire, VG Iron

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Improv wrote:
mandolarian wrote:Oh, come on, Hunter, every hardware designer knows that software programming is just 'typing' :D
I wonder how many program their own software because they think that software dev is so damn easy?

About 1 in 500? :lol:
I do - but not DSP software (I'm a pretty good perl hacker, it's my language of choice for a lot of things).

I have Synthedit and Synthmaker, but haven't done anything of substance with them yet. SE isn't really "programming" unless you're writing your own modules, but SM has a code component that looks powerful.

Doug
Last edited by dougsyo on Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad - Spock, in "I, Mudd"

For a good time click http://www.belindabedekovic.com/video_fl_en.htm

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Did you ever think that maybe some of the for sale software is just a guess on price? I mean, you need a very sophisticated market research team to figure out exactly what value someone attaches to your product. The cheapest way is to take a wild stab and how many you can sell at what price, to turn a profit that is acceptable to you. With downloadable product, it's an easy thing to adjust if it doesn't appear to be at the acceptable price point.

There is so much cool free stuff though - I haven't been tempted to buy an effect or synth yet. I'm still figgerin' out the cool freebies.

-Scott

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Muff Wiggler wrote:
esl wrote:thanks to everyone for the information.

I think what I am understanding here today is that soft synths do not sell nearly as many "units" as I thought they did.
if you see borogove around the forums (he's the one-man show behind Tiny God, excellent and low-cost VST synths and effects), ask him about this :lol:

then get really depressed :cry:
René, Big Tick, or Urs are probably better examples of what a one-man show can do. VST dev is just one of a dozen hobbies of mine, and as such it gets a small fraction of my time. If I were serious about it, I'd (a) advertise, (b) spend more time on it more than I do, and (c) not try to pay 45% of the mortgage on a single family home in San Francisco on the earnings.

That said, my day job brings in more than one hundred times as much money as Tiny God does.
Last edited by Borogove on Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BONES wrote:
woolyloach wrote:Let's say you need to make $50,000 a year (poverty level here in Silicon Valley) before taxes to live
f**k! Half the people I know would be paupers. [...]In fact, I think the average wage in Australia is around Au$55,000 which is about US$41k.
True... Silly Valley is one of the most expensive places in the States to live (along with NYC, Boston & DC, among others).

By comparison, I live halfway between Cleveland and Pittsburgh in an area where US$41K is very livable, due to cost of living, availability of moderately priced houses, etc.

Doug
Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad - Spock, in "I, Mudd"

For a good time click http://www.belindabedekovic.com/video_fl_en.htm

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dougsyo wrote:
BONES wrote:
woolyloach wrote:Let's say you need to make $50,000 a year (poverty level here in Silicon Valley) before taxes to live
f**k! Half the people I know would be paupers. [...]In fact, I think the average wage in Australia is around Au$55,000 which is about US$41k.
True... Silly Valley is one of the most expensive places in the States to live (along with NYC, Boston & DC, among others).

By comparison, I live halfway between Cleveland and Pittsburgh in an area where US$41K is very livable, due to cost of living, availability of moderately priced houses, etc.

Doug
I dont know where that figure comes from on Oz wages.
Most people I know make between $29-39K (AUD)per annum here.
I have too exist on 14-16K (approx) annually because I can't work :(.
I've only got the set up I have now due to the extensive hardware studio I once owned ( when financial ) and the generosity of a few people.
If i can't afford it I can't afford it.
Sad but true.
It atleast makes me use what i have to good effect.
So most of this new VST stuff whilst nice isn't all that tempting really.
It certainly won't make my music any better that's for sure.
What I'd really like at the moment are some cheap X0X hardware units.
If I could afford an Electribe ER-1 and EA-1 MkII +
a desktop Evolver (Mono) .... IMHO I'd be set.
I can't even afford that at Oz prices unless someone wants to trade my P5V2.0 for one or two of the above ?

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