why are most soft synths and effects so expensive?

[lfm]

Warez is simply not the problem. It's pricing. Developers could sell a lot of plug-ins to a lot of "new" customers who don't typically pay for plugs if they priced for volume, but they don't want to do that. The real customer loss is all those who might pay $30 to $50 for a synth, but never $180 to $250 or more. The synths could be less fully featured and simpler to use, and in theory require less support as a result. But I don't see much interest in this market by developers. Not yet.

There are so many free synthplugin that fullfill the need for anybody that just need a synth. There are hundreds of these.

Not too many knobs and buttons and a fair amount of presets to startoff with.

If to get any income from this field best would be to get a bundle deal with a vendor like Cakewalk etc.

So what are we willing to pay for?

<$100 something that might be a little fun or cannot afford more

This buyer is probably in higher need of support as well.

There are plenty of developers with software products in this pricerange. I even bought recording software and many things in this range.

So I don't know what you a talking about when you say they don't exist.

Eventually you start looking at more expensive stuff, since the low priced vendor has no time to assist you with the problems you might have. It's simply not possible for him to do that.

>$100 Something that we really need

More sofisticated buyer and knows a lot of synths before probably. Less support.

What would you choose if you were a developer?

I have found you get what you pay for. I have plenty low range priced products and most of them are too buggy to use.

With a higher price range product you get:

* continuity

You get new versions and new features for a much lower cost. And this for many years to come. Continuous improvements on product.

* serious support

It's no guarantee, but more probable since the money is there. So when having problems, you can get it fixed. If you don't get help, you have waisted your money, if it's a serious problem.

I think we see more products in the range $250-$500 because of piracy. The lower priceranges does not give enough revenue to survive on the actual sold items. Those vendors are already gone

[kritikon]

I think it was HanafiH who mentioned about ARP, Moog et al going tits-up. And there have benn many more recent companies going tits-up, both in the h/w and s/w world.

That's a response to the constant idea I see being put about that if prices are dropped, then more sales will accrue. The above companies give patent denial to that logic. Prices have done nothing but drop for the past 30 years - they've probably dropped the most in the past 5 years, yet companies continue to struggle and some go out of business.

H/w synth manufacturers' total sales numbers have constantly dropped, from what I've seen of the figures...yet every year those h/w synths do more and more things for less and less money. Bones mentioned the Micron...very good value, and I'm amazed they can make any profit (maybe they don't) And look at Alesis - they very nearly went tits-up a handful of years ago - I strongly suspect they still don't make stellar profits. They've even gone back to having lots of knobs and controllers (which is what us the users demanded for many a year) and still sales drop. I fail to see how s/w is immune to the same conditions. In fact s/w is in more danger - you couldn't used cracked copies of h/w and they lost sales. It stands to reason to me that s/w will struggle ever more than h/w used to.

Some of the figures mentioned - M1s in the 100s of 1000s and at a price that still needed alot of saving-up for most musicians. VSTi - 5000 if you're lucky. Seems to me, the cheaper and more freely available the synths are, the more they struggle.

I don't know what the answer is...I was going to say that maybe the companies like Waves that go for the higher prices and try for the quality tag do better...but look at Waldorf; I remember much talk at the time that the Wave contributed a great amount to their downfall. They aimed at the absolute top of the market with a huge synth that was unmatched, only need to sell a few to reap the costs back etc, but that ploy didn't work either.

When you look at Host devs...it seems like the top end of the market are the ones that maintain business. I won't be surprised when it's mostly VSTi devs who charge more and not less that are the ones that remain in business. So anyone can shout for cheaper and cheaper products, but it might just mean they end up with less choice of truly useable synths.

The cheapskates have had their way for 30 years - product has got progressively cheaper and cheaper and still we're not happy, and we're losing good comanies along the way. Look at the leaders of h/w synths in terms of manufacturing. Roland and Korg being prime examples...used to make quite a few cutting edge synths at the time. Prices dropped and dropped and dropped and are still dropping. And their products became blander and blander and dull. I can't remember the last Roland product that made me even want a second listen, and Korg aren't too much further behind. Akai - made samplers affordable to the masses, yet as the years went by and they were forced to offer more and more features in their samplers, they became progressively less in quality. The last samplers they produced had stultifyingly dull filters etc. I've heard a fair few of the multiFX boxes over recent years and they are usually incredibly average, but look at Eventide and Lexicon (and maybe even TC, although I don't personally put them in the same league... ) they are the ones that steadfastly maintain their prices but equally steadfastly deliver quality product and stay in business.

The same will likely hold true in s/w.

[Angus_FX]

There are so many free synthplugin that fullfill the need for anybody that just need a synth. There are hundreds of these.

Not only that, but many hosts (bearing in mind anybody buying plug-ins has to have a host first) come with a capable synth.. Cubase and Logic both have several, Cakewalk have some excellent Roland stuff, Pro Tools comes with lite versions of Reason, Sampletank and BFD.

That raises the bar to entry -- for example, if you're expecting to sell a ROMpler instrument, it has to be at least as good and useful as Sampletank Lite or Edirol VSC. Even then, though, you're only going to sell something to people who've decided that what they already have is not good enough.. and once they have decided that, it may not be that much harder to get most to spend $200 rather than $20.

If to get any income from this field best would be to get a bundle deal with a vendor like Cakewalk etc.

Except that the host vendors frequently pay little or nothing for the bundling, it's mostly seen as a marketing concession on top of which the plug-in vendor sells upgrades. There are exceptions -- if somebody at the host company takes a liking to a particular plug-in -- but that's the rule. The same, I suspect, is true for the host vendors when they get lite versions bundled with sound cards.

Best regards,
Angus.

[Amberience]

I can name many developers of hardware AND software which refute your claims lfm.

* EnergyXT - $49 - Updated numerous times a month. Great userbase support. Software has features that negate the need for Cubase or Logic or some other big company sequencer.

*ManyStation - $99 - Great workstation synth that can play multisampled instruments and run them through subtractive processes. Sound quality is really good.

*ConcreteFX Kubik - $60 - Wavetable synth that can produce sounds to rival the likes of Absynth and Cameleon. Lots of features, and relatively easy to use.

*Audio Damage Dubstation - $39 - A great delay effect that isn't just limited to dub type sounds.

*Audio Damage Discord - $39 - A very cool sounding delay that can pitch the echoes, giving some really strange results. Can also give subtle chorusing effects if used right.

*Beringher - always coming out with products that are cheap, and very useable. Their latest spate of "Boss-a-like" guitar pedals cost £15 each (roughly $30) and according to reviews I've read, their very useable. Some are pretty basic, but others got really high praises in Total Guitar/Guitarist magazine.

There are so many good freeware plugins too:

Analogic Delay
Bionic Delay
SIR
Minimogue VA
Augur
Crystal
Kjearhus' Classic FX

That's to just name a few. My point being that you don't need to break the bank to make good music. You don't need to spent hundreds of dollars for good effects and synths and samplers and other gear. So following this, companies shouldn't have to charge hundreds of dollars.

The reason they do - in my opinion - is because people don't know any better. They don't know that they could get very similar sounds from Minimogue as they could a real Moog or Arturia's Moog Modular.

People just don't investigate. They go out and buy whatever is the key word that month, and companies play on this.

Software WILL struggle unless developers move with the times and with the mob majority. And the mob majority in the music realm are tosspots like me who sit in their bedroom and make music, giving no particular thought to chart success.

There are more unknown and unsuccessful "just doing it for the joy of doing it" musicians and composers, than there are Hans Zimmer wannabes. But companies are consistently appealing to the latter, rather than the majority. That's just the way I see it.

[Amberience]

FXpansion reminds me too... there's no way I would spend £129 on BFD when I can do everything it does with NSKIT and some plugins.

Maybe I'm just too willing to work for my sound

[Urs]

The big sponsorship deals go to the big artists - they get all their instruments etc. whilst a no-name guitarist would be lucky to get a set of strings.
Would it (or could it) be any different for computer musicians?

I get a lot of requests for free copies by semi-popular people. They typically offer mentioning u-he in the CD notes, speaking positively in interviews, whatsoever. I already have a standard reply: "Sorry, but I don't buy opinion!"

Only recently I got one who did not even mention getting a free copy. He just wrapped it into nice words about this and that ("want to work with you..."), but the aim was obvious. Hehe, I pretended not to understand the request and sent him a download link to the fully functional (but time limited) Z2 preview. He sounded pretty happy but I guess he'll come back with a straighter request when the preview expires

I also have quite a bunch of really famous musicians among my customers. These people just buy stuff the normal way, using a credit card. Sometimes it's their "assistant" and sometimes I realize their identity like half a year afterwards (happened once with someone I have had several albums from back in the 80ies...).

Nevertheless, I guess that many popular people get a lot of stuff for free. But it would be more honest to our customers if we (developers) were not impressed by names.

Cheers,

Urs

[lfm]

I can name many developers of hardware AND software which refute your claims lfm.

That's to just name a few. My point being that you don't need to break the bank to make good music. You don't need to spent hundreds of dollars for good effects and synths and samplers and other gear. So following this, companies shouldn't have to charge hundreds of dollars.

It's a choice you make.

* Do you want to take care of 1000 customers, bringing maybe $20,000 to the company. You probably need an extra guy at support to take care of all these people.

or

* Do you want to take good care of 100 customers, making the same money, and you don't have to employ extra personell for support stuff.

The choice is very easy, for me at least.

The reason they do - in my opinion - is because people don't know any better. They don't know that they could get very similar sounds from Minimogue as they could a real Moog or Arturia's Moog Modular.

People just don't investigate. They go out and buy whatever is the key word that month, and companies play on this.

Partly what you pay for in more expensive synths is marketing. And marketing works, that's why they spend so much money on it.

So KVR is a goldmine considering what a good overlook you get on what's available. And those that want to market their stuff has a good spot as well.

I'm glad there still are some lowprice stuff, but I don't think they will grow as a business. As I said one important thing for me at least, is that there are improvements and you can live with the product for a number of years to come.

And thank's for the listed tips. I will check it out. Most products were new to me.

[Amberience]

I don't know about most of them, but I know Jorgen the guy who develops EnergyXT makes a living from XT. It is possible to make a living from software, you just need a good product and a dedicated userbase

I'm not sure how he manages actually, because he never asks for upgrade fee's and he never releases bullshit products on the side to pay for his burgers. :shrugs:

[kritikon]

I don't know about most of them, but I know Jorgen the guy who develops EnergyXT makes a living from XT. It is possible to make a living from software, you just need a good product and a dedicated userbase

I'm not sure how he manages actually, because he never asks for upgrade fee's and he never releases bullshit products on the side to pay for his burgers. :shrugs:

I would think it most likely that a large number of KvR members live substantially better then he does just on the income from XT. Do the maths with the numbers - I don't know how anyone thinks those meagre sales can give a decent year-long wage. And that's what a living is, not just the odd payment every now and then, but enough to pay the mortgage, the leccy bill, the rates, the Sky bill, petrol, car insurance, food for the kids, clothes etc etc etc just like you and me.

I hear about how "ridiculously expensive" $200 is for a VSTi - in my local $ that equals around maybe $320. Software here is proportionately more expensive than in Europe and the US because of exchange rates etc and the relaitive cheapness of everything else. So $320 from one sale. I take home around $250 per shift after tax deductions and everything else. You take that $320 then take of their taxes and other deductions and see how many sales you need for a full year's wages. Then factor in any other payments that need to be taken out of it, any other wages that need paying, the constant update of PCs, the masses of hosts etc you need to beta test on and all the other stuff that I don't know about, but which must take a chunk out of it.

And all I have to do is work for a little over one day to buy a good synth that might be all I need to make myself a career in music...if I wanted. Whoever is selling those synths, if he's working solely on his own has to sell 365 every year to stay afloat. And we all know that after the first spurt, sales don't maintain the volume for long. Then you move onto the next development. Yes, some VSTi sell a few thousand, and generally those ones are NOT one lonely sad bugger working on his own out of a dingy attic. And not many sell in the thousands to start with.


I take your point about the majority of actual customers probably being hobbyists. But if that's the case, us hobbyists are proving the point that we cannot support a large s/w music market in terms of VSTi. Tosspots like you and me refuse to pay enough to keep the buggers in the market. As a hobbyist I could afford several thousands in the past on h/w when that's all the option there was. But now us hobbyists can't afford more than a day's work on gear simply because it's s/w, but achieves exactly the same thing?

[Amberience]

I doubt Jorgen is having a bad time with things financially. It may be true that some KvR members make more money, but if Jorgen cared more about that, he wouldn't be so dedicated to XT.

I don't want to turn this into an XT praising thread though.

I just don't get the motivation to price so high. If I had the skills to make something as complex and beastly as Absynth for example, I most definitely would not want to charge anything more than £50 (about $90usd).

I guess what it comes down to is this: some people pride themselves on making a lot of money. Some people pride themselves on making a kick ass product that doesn't cost the earth.

I mean, if anyone is to blame for highly priced software not being bought enough and thus putting people in jepoardy, it's the people who don't want to charge large amounts of money. You and I see this, and we're always gonna go with the cheaper option if it's just as good as the more expensive - because we're hobbyists, and we're the majority.

If companies want to stay in business, they should appeal to the majority surely?

It's not that we can't suport a large s/w music market. It's that people are trying to treat s/w in the same way as h/w and they are not at all the same. I'm sorry to say, but your Absynths and your Cameleons are not as valuable monetarily as hardware. If the opposite were true, we'd have no problems would we.

[Amberience]

but enough to pay the mortgage, the leccy bill, the rates, the Sky bill, petrol, car insurance, food for the kids, clothes etc etc etc just like you and me.

Just to add. Things like Sky, petrol, and kids are optional. I'd sooner have a synth than any of them

[kritikon]

yeah, and probably more expensive in the long run.

Dunno about Sky though.....not sure I could survive without Can't cook, Won't cook and Cash in the Attic.

[Amberience]

Ainsley's cheeky face...

[kritikon]

Ooooooooooooooooh! I could just kiss it this very moment...






.....errrrrr

[Urs]

I just don't get the motivation to price so high. If I had the skills to make something as complex and beastly as Absynth for example, I most definitely would not want to charge anything more than £50 (about $90usd).

You say this now, from your perspective. But after spending 3+ years of work into something like Absynth, I highly doubt that you or anyone would keep that commitment

The developer's perspective is a bit different. We do spend years in advance on an Absynth-like software before any cash flows back. When we compare our work in terms of revenues to the value we actually achieved (i.e. way more features that might concptually be more intelligent than a shitload of hardware machines put together), we have tears in our eyes when we set up a 3-digit price tag on ShareIt or PayPal.

IMHO it's a shame that software is considered less valuable than hardware. I mean, today's hardware is mostly just software with a big heavy dongle around it. While a software plugin is not just 1 expensive box, you can create 1,2,3, many instances at once. Why else would you choose to use software instead of hardware? - It IS because the value you get is multiple times higher than that of hardware, at a fraction of the expense.

So, from a developer's perspective, any complaint about +/- 100 bucks is embarrassingly pointless.

Cheers,

Urs