why are most soft synths and effects so expensive?

[droolmaster0]

I'd basically want to combine a powerful synth engine behind the scenes together with a synth programmers knowledge base, tricks, techniques and so on to create some kind of sound expert system, accessible to the end user but still employing really skilled programmers' tricks in the back end.

Actually, I think there are a number of developers who have attempted this, but the results are that as they find unique ways to combine features, it becomes more difficult to simplify the interface. Usability becomes a critical issue when combining features with a gui. And the resulting sounds are sometimes not necessarily better, just different.

For example, two recent attempts within $10 of each other are Blue and Surge. For all the praise about Surge's interface, I find Blue vastly superior in both overall sound and functionality. I don't "get" Surge, although others think it one of the best synths ever offered. To me, it makes noise more than musical sound, which means the interface is irrelevant to me.

It could simply be that Blue comes with amazing presets, whereas Surge does not. I know there is at least one person whose posts indicate he thinks presets are not a way to judge a synth, but I say they prove just how good a synth is or can be. Presets not only help a developer demonstrate the qualities of his or her synth, but also provide customers with a baseline from which to test their own creativity. To me, presets are a sound expert system.

In the end, the developer cannot please all the people all of the time because personal preferences, natural abilities and musical goals all influence what a customer wants (or needs). When the instrument matches the customer really well, the customer will pay $200 and feel lucky to have the plug-in.

LOL - to this day you still talk about not "getting" Surge, and you still have only tried the presets. Pretty hilarious, actually. But you've gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

[dover666]

presets are NOT the way to judge a synth....

[beej]

Presets are ONE way to judge a synth...

Just not the *only* way...

[droolmaster0]

Presets are ONE way to judge a synth...

Just not the *only* way...

right. And it is fair to say - I tried the presets, but just didn't like the sound quality, or it just didn't seem that interesting, etc..but what is rather strange is that when person after person says - the interface is GREAT for tweaking, and you can get some great sounding, complex stuff out of this synth by tweaking it - that someone would repeatedly, in thread after thread, dis this synth because of the presets, without EVER trying to edit patches. This is obviously a tweaker's synth, so in that sense, it certainly isn't for him...

[kritikon]

BONES wrote:
Why can't commercial developers make niche versions of their uber-synths?

If for nothing else but to stir things up; they probably don't do that because almost 2 seconds after releasing it, there's the inevitable barrage of requests to add things "why can't it do unison?" "What about osc sync?" "why can't I access the mod routings?" why can't this VA synth do FM?" We've all seen it so many times here. Devs almost aren't allowed to release simple synths - and it's what I usually imagine are the preset people who you'd think don't get deep inside synths, that always complain about there not being enough in any simple synth that comes out...:"what? Only 3 oscillators! But Superwave has 7!" or ..."I can get sound type X on Z3ta, so I'm not going to buy this synth because it only does sound type Y" ... yet this synth probably only costs $30. We've seen it in this thread already - there is no concensus on what every different user wants in a synth - No dev can EVER please everyone.

I distinctly remember Torben stating he had received numerous requests for a cut-down GCO-1. So he released GUP-1 (nice, because it added a sidechain yet cut out some of the more esoteric features available in GCO-1) I was one of the few who bought it. It pretty well flopped from what Torben said afterwards. I can only assume so many of those people who requested a simpler plugin, only got envious of the plethore of features on GCO-1 once GUP-1 was actually out and voted with their wallets.

Look at the new FabFilter thingummy. The original synth got alot of talk around here. Maybe I'm wrong, but I got the impression that it still didn't sell that well, and there were many many complaints about it being too simple, not enough modulation, not enough this, not enough that..blah, blah, blah...Then when this big bloatfest called FFTwin comes out...suddenly there's interest. It's not a bad synth either - nice, but not for me, but it looks like they succumbed to pressure to inject a whole host of features, that really it probably doesn't need. It certainly doesn't need the number of mod slots it has, considering the type of sounds I think it'll mostly be used for by customers.

Seems to me there isn't much of a call for simple plugins - whatever the majority say, they seem to expect as given, lots and lots of features, and feel disappointed if they don't get them; even if they never once use them.

Bones' stance makes a load of sense to me (at least from what his needs and uses are), but I really do think he's in a minority. I know I'm in a minority with my love of patching for the sake of it etc. The majority actually have the needs as stated by Bones, but they have the expectations of someone like me - which is silly because they don't need half the stuff that I want in a synth. But there you go...hey ho...

[eduardo_b]

LOL - to this day you still talk about not "getting" Surge, and you still have only tried the presets. Pretty hilarious, actually. But you've gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

I might be willing to give an individual who has created a synth with marginal presets a pass, but any commercial developer charging anything close to $200 that doesn't include great presets gets no slack from me. It's inexcusable, period.

There are plenty of great sound designers here on KVR who would be more than willing to help a developer out with superior presets. Any developer who offers a synth without these is telling me either the synth really isn't very good or intelligent marketing isn't on their radar. I can't think of a highly regarded synth that doesn't come with quality presets. The reason is simple. Nine out of every 10 potential buyers will include preset quantity and quality in their evaluation. The more expensive the synth, the more this is true.

You're the one out of 10 who doesn't care. It might work for you because you are talented or simply don't want someone else's presets getting in the way, but it doesn't work for me. Presets are not the only criteria, but their quality tells me a lot about the developer's talents and interest in customers. Instruments and effects with good presets always have a market advantage.

[eduardo_b]

This is obviously a tweaker's synth, so in that sense, it certainly isn't for him...

Fair enough. If I have to tweak a synth out of the box, then it really isn't for me.

[shamann]

Any developer who offers a synth without these is telling me either the synth really isn't very good or intelligent marketing isn't on their radar.

So, you would pay more for better marketing?

Nine out of every 10 potential buyers will include preset quantity and quality in their evaluation. The more expensive the synth, the more this is true.

Actually, given the numbers we're seeing in this thread, and given what I've heard enough people say on dozens of webforums, 9 out of 10 seems highly spurious.

Other than assumptions, I'd really like to see evidence that 90% of the softsynth-buying market put priority on presets over feature-set. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of users never touched advanced features to any great degree, but they sure like to state often enough how much they like having them.

Most fascinating to me is that many synth preset makers, be they commercial or free, seem perfectly happy to make the same kinds of sounds for every new synth they get, with maybe one esoteric feature thrown in for good measure to satisfy that "see, this what synth X can do that nothing else can" impulse.

[Kraku]

Times have changed. Once there was a time when synths didn't have any presets and you had to create every sound by yourself...

Synths with loads of presets have invited a whole new and different generation of musicians to write some music.

[droolmaster0]

LOL - to this day you still talk about not "getting" Surge, and you still have only tried the presets. Pretty hilarious, actually. But you've gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

I might be willing to give an individual who has created a synth with marginal presets a pass, but any commercial developer charging anything close to $200 that doesn't include great presets gets no slack from me. It's inexcusable, period.

There are plenty of great sound designers here on KVR who would be more than willing to help a developer out with superior presets. Any developer who offers a synth without these is telling me either the synth really isn't very good or intelligent marketing isn't on their radar. I can't think of a highly regarded synth that doesn't come with quality presets. The reason is simple. Nine out of every 10 potential buyers will include preset quantity and quality in their evaluation. The more expensive the synth, the more this is true.

You're the one out of 10 who doesn't care. It might work for you because you are talented or simply don't want someone else's presets getting in the way, but it doesn't work for me. Presets are not the only criteria, but their quality tells me a lot about the developer's talents and interest in customers. Instruments and effects with good presets always have a market advantage.

You're pretty hilarious. You have every right to refuse to by synths that don't include great presets. But, for a synth whose most groundbreaking feature is the way its interface makes it easy to tweak parameters and mod routings, to say that it sucks because the presets suck is just ridiculous. Just say that you're not interested in a synth without good presets. That's fine. but quite a few people have told you already - this synth is great - IF you're someone who likes to tweak their sounds. There are people who like to do that. The notion that it's INEXUSABLE to neglect the presets (I haven't tried them much - I honestly don't know) is just plain stupid. Here's the synth - you want it, then buy it. You don't, then don't. A lot of people are really impressed. I am. What the f**k is your problem?

[eduardo_b]

Any developer who offers a synth without these is telling me either the synth really isn't very good or intelligent marketing isn't on their radar.

So, you would pay more for better marketing?

Given all the pages of posts from developers noting how small the overall plug-in market is, and given the competition for customers, an instrument or effect with great presets could easily outsell an equally good synth that comes with mundane presets. In fact, even if the second synth was better in terms of features, the first synth could still sell more copies because it's more accessible out of the box.

Marketing is not just advertising. It's perception of value, and I say great presets increase that perception. Perception is often reality for customers.

Nine out of every 10 potential buyers will include preset quantity and quality in their evaluation. The more expensive the synth, the more this is true.

Actually, given the numbers we're seeing in this thread, and given what I've heard enough people say on dozens of webforums, 9 out of 10 seems highly spurious.

Except that the number of people posting to this thread would not begin to support the plug-in market. Out of an already small universe of plug-in buyers, this is an even smaller universe.
It is no accident that presets are supplied with just about every commercial instrument and effect. Good presets increase sales because they present the plug at its best. Tweakers are not going to buy enough plugs to keep developers in business. Hobbyists who are shopping will test drive with presets. And they aren't posting here because most of them aren't on KVR.

Most fascinating to me is that many synth preset makers, be they commercial or free, seem perfectly happy to make the same kinds of sounds for every new synth they get, with maybe one esoteric feature thrown in for good measure to satisfy that "see, this what synth X can do that nothing else can" impulse.

Yeah, I've noticed that as well. Some, such as Rob Papen, seem to be exceptions, but most seem to duplicate others. Perhaps that's because the synths, despite differences in gui and layout, really aren't all that different. When I was clearing out VSTi folders a few months ago, I realized how many sounded rather similar, and could be discarded.

[eduardo_b]

Just say that you're not interested in a synth without good presets. That's fine.

I am saying this. You're reading more into my posts than is there. And we seem to agree that Surge isn't apparently intended for non-tweakers. I have no problem...there is no problem. Peace.

[dover666]

would someone please make a "great" bank of presets for this "surge"? I'd like to hear what homey has to say about it when given decent patches... ???

[original flipper]

HI

Well ... I purchased Surge last night: FWIW I did not buy it based on the pre-sets but what I did base my purchase on was the ease with which I altered a pre-set that almost had me - into a pre-set that did.

I kinda agree with the pre-set argument though: for the developer it could be the one and only opportunity to present their product in the best light possible, I might go on to say that if it meant putting 20 mind blowing (although I don't honestly know what they might be) pre-sets in the demo - then that could produce a better rate of sales?

But, saying that I personally have had the demo for weeks and it was a slow procces getting out the plastic - in fact I have been selling off quite a few bit's as I want as few as possible synths in my plug-in folder these days.

I find it interesting though, how 'we' the consumer concern ourselves so much with the 'if, but's and why' of the whole procces - perhaps the thought that the developer might be reading 'your/my/our' thoughts is somehow cathartic to people?

Anyway as the man once said - "no one is forcing you to buy" - and the whole discussion probably reaches a stage where those who do purchase (and I am speaking about any paid for software now) particular software will use it and those who feel it inadequate or too expensive for their needs probably need to just move on.

Flipper.

[Urs]

Times have changed. Once there was a time when synths didn't have any presets and you had to create every sound by yourself...

You know, I'm a big fan of Matthew Herbert's way of thinking: A song must not contain any presets/samples that exist outside of the song. Patches/samples have to be created for a song. When a song is mixed down, any file must be deleted.

Thus I always wanted to deliver plugs without presets. Settings would only save with song, but nowhere else.

Unfortunately, it would be very hard to sell more than 2 copies then

Cheers,

Urs