How is one supposed to try Cubase???

[Failed Muso]

Another possibility, of course, although I don't really think this could possibly be true , is that a build freed of dependency upon the Syncrosoft dongle exhibits strikingly different performance from those builds that are dependent on it.

I hate to say it, but I'd loooove to see how Cubase handles without the dongle. Probably the same, but I'd love to know.

Just ask H2O !

J/K

[bduffy]

Another possibility, of course, although I don't really think this could possibly be true , is that a build freed of dependency upon the Syncrosoft dongle exhibits strikingly different performance from those builds that are dependent on it.

I hate to say it, but I'd loooove to see how Cubase handles without the dongle. Probably the same, but I'd love to know.

Just ask H2O !

J/K

If I remember correctly, they claimed to have removed only some of the code, it's so deeply written in. Very interesting. I do wish it wasn't necessary, but with Steinberg staving off hackers for a year, I'm sure that is considered a resounding success.

I mean, that's it, isn't it? You have to download a cracked version to try it out. Silly.

But then again, as Sascha pointed out, there is no demo for Logic, and they don't get a fraction of the flack that Cubase does. And they betrayed all of their PC customers! Maybe, in the end, it all works itself out.

[HanafiH]

Another possibility, of course, although I don't really think this could possibly be true , is that a build freed of dependency upon the Syncrosoft dongle exhibits strikingly different performance from those builds that are dependent on it.

I hate to say it, but I'd loooove to see how Cubase handles without the dongle. Probably the same, but I'd love to know.

Never used SX3, never will, never even seen it on a live computer, but I too would like to know the answer to that.

[HanafiH]

I do wish it wasn't necessary, but with Steinberg staving off hackers for a year, I'm sure that is considered a resounding success.

But that's the really crazy thing: I'm almost certain they shot themselves in the foot with that near-year's worth of protection. The thing with genuinely strong copy protection is that you can't be the only vendor in the market to use it - now perhaps sales went up on a per-unit basis in the short term, but the heart and soul of the market went entirely over to SONAR along with all freeloaders, and if my local teens are anything to go by, it stayed there. Network effects across an assymetric market - people write doctorates on this stuff.

One thing is for sure, there's at most two years before ubiquitous strong protection will be in use by all vendors, except the very smallest, and then we'll see what we will see.

But Cubase just isn't the first-stop-shop for the freeloaders anymore, not least because the dark-side tech support for it just ain't there. Interesting days.

[Failed Muso]

I bought my first copy of Cubase back in about 96 when it was at version 3. About 6 months later, it was upgraded to Cubase VST and this was free. I then got all subsequent upgrades free up to 3.752 and then paid £99 for the V5 upgrade, which I didn't resent because it was a complete re-write. Then I paid a further £99 to go to SX1. Again, not too much resentment because it was a radical update. But I got decidedly narked when SX2 and then 3 came as almost annual, chargeable upgrades.

I finally buckled and went from SX1 to SX3 and I have to say it is very good.

I have to say that I plumped for Cubase as I had used it on the Atari ST at a friends studio and just found it intuitive. My very first PC sequencer was Evolution Audio which was a poor but workable Cubase clone, but as it resembled my MO, it was quite accommodating. My transition to Cubase V3 was less painful too.

I don't know why Steinberg get all this grief. True, dongles suck, but they really don't deserve the "son of satan" tag they seem to bear nowadays. As has been said, Logic deserted PC users and seemed to get away with it ! I also own Live and these new breed of sequencers are great for todays modern loop based creation techniques. I love it's simplicity and flexibility but prefer the traditional aspect of Cubase.

As my work demands have dictated, I have since got Nuendo 3 which is a pretty smooth transition from Cubase.

I agree that the lack of a demo isn't ideal. Whether this is a snobby attitude or a genuine concern over piracy is anyone's guess, but they certainly aren't encouraging new users. All I can say is that SX3 (and I assume SE/SL3) is very stable and worth every penny, but isn't for the faint hearted or those who refuse to spend some serious manual time (Eh, G-RO ? LOL )

Personally, if you can learn the basic principles of sequencing (not just loop based stuff, but proper, old fashioned linear sequencing, or even step/grid sequencing) then you will easily get used to programs like Cubase or Logic et al.

Saying all of this, I love Reason too

[bduffy]

Another possibility, of course, although I don't really think this could possibly be true , is that a build freed of dependency upon the Syncrosoft dongle exhibits strikingly different performance from those builds that are dependent on it.

I hate to say it, but I'd loooove to see how Cubase handles without the dongle. Probably the same, but I'd love to know.

Never used SX3, never will, never even seen it on a live computer...

Imagine my shock...






Kidding, couldn't resist.

[bduffy]

I do wish it wasn't necessary, but with Steinberg staving off hackers for a year, I'm sure that is considered a resounding success.

But that's the really crazy thing: I'm almost certain they shot themselves in the foot with that near-year's worth of protection. The thing with genuinely strong copy protection is that you can't be the only vendor in the market to use it - now perhaps sales went up on a per-unit basis in the short term, but the heart and soul of the market went entirely over to SONAR along with all freeloaders, and if my local teens are anything to go by, it stayed there. Network effects across an assymetric market - people write doctorates on this stuff.

One thing is for sure, there's at most two years before ubiquitous strong protection will be in use by all vendors, except the very smallest, and then we'll see what we will see.

But Cubase just isn't the first-stop-shop for the freeloaders anymore, not least because the dark-side tech support for it just ain't there. Interesting days.

Indeed. I wish there was a satellite feed that could show us, over time, migrations towards sequencers and what caused them. Heck, I don't even know who "wins" the host wars these days. What is the most used sequencer? Anyone know?

[olepro]

I can see your point in trying a demo on your system.
BUT for how long will you keep your computer before you "have" to buy another faster one ?

And what will you do then if your new system doesn't work with Cubase and your soundcard?

Go down the shop and get Cubase SX3 demoed.
I'm allmost shure you will get it to work with a little help from a friend...

[HanafiH]

Indeed. I wish there was a satellite feed that could show us, over time, migrations towards sequencers and what caused them. Heck, I don't even know who "wins" the host wars these days. What is the most used sequencer? Anyone know?

Winding up Cubase fanboys is a hobby, by profession I’m a principal technical specialist in computer-aided marketing for a wholly owned subsidiary of one of the world’s largest news conglomerates.

Network effects are the key to everything, because the key to successful marketing in global markets is the synchronisation of above and below the line marketing. That’s why every piece of packaging you buy with your favourite burger is now designed to make you into a walking advert as you eat it. The user, any user, is a component in the campaign, whether they pay for the product or not, that’s the aim. If they’re going to steal your product, make them advertise it, support it, promote it and praise it for you. It’s not just pretty pictures in a magazine, it’s a mythos, a statement, a projection of the corporate being.

SONAR now has the US market lock, stock and smoking barrels, and Cakewalk knows it. The company policy of shipping with the weakest protection at exactly the same time as its historic competitor has barricaded behind the strongest, not cultivating an antipathetic ethos in its user base, throwing open it’s tech support, selectively buying up an ever more impressive array of out-of-the-box features, and particularly landing the 64 bit engine, all smack of a seriously devious marketing mind at work.

Steinberg, well, let’s just say it doesn’t make very much effort being nice to people. Cubase is ever so gradually losing its universal familiarity, becoming opaque to the novice, the perception of too many unpleasant owners to deal with, and too many obscure problems you can’t get help with, difficult to penetrate if you don’t already use it.

What’s being played for is strategic dominance of the marginal market: whoever is biggest in freeloader-land at the point strong protection becomes ubiquitous, will mine revenues from every hobbyist in addition to any true core market that is already spending now. That marginal market, when it is obliged to pay, or go without, will make its owner the Microsoft of audio software.

[bduffy]

Wow, nice post. I cannot argue that SONAR really has to be enjoying some kind of advantage with its user-friendliness. The only potential hole I can see in this idea is how significant the professional market is and whether it makes up for the ameteur sales. I suspect most studios(etc) still tend to turn up their noses at SONAR, favouring PT, Logic, Nuendo or Cubase long before SONAR - not saying it doesn't deserve it, just that it's trying to cross over from the home market to the professional, and that's a slow turnaround. Nuendo is only just starting to become slightly scceptable, and it has years on SONAR.

Anyways, you see my point? Could it be like this: SONAR rules the home/small-studio market and Cubase stays afloat on crusty old musicians used to dongles? Look at Pro Tools and Waves; if you've got the big market, and you know it, you can simply charge more. Might make up for the shortfalls, and maybe Steiberg knows it. Or not.

[diverdee]

Good ponts HanfiH.
The difference in the forums speaks volumes.
Go on the SX forums as a non-user (even a fairly ignorant new-user) & ask a question, chances are the only answers you'll get are along the lines of: 'what colours your dongle?', 'what version are you using?' 'are you a despicable crack fiend whoreson?' etc., that is if one of the moderators doesn't just lock the thread first & ask you to update your profile (even if you initially state that you haven't purchased the software, you just asking questions), with nary a visit from actual tech. support guys - & their phone support etc? being referred from arbiter, back to steiny, to your dealer etc. with no one wanting to take responsibility & the unanswered emails etc.
Ask a question on the Sonar forums, there's a good chance one of their official tech support guys will give you an answer.
The ableton forums similar, everynow & then there's a thread where an ex warez user comes clean & is (mostly) given a cheerful welcome.
That speaks volumes.
I remember when I did process analysis & shit at cellnet I spent some time liasing with an outside company who measured 'customer satisfaction' as the mobile phone industry is one with a particularly high 'churn' - customer care becomes all important, & that initial perception is so important.
The old adage is that a customer with a very pleasant experience of support usually tells a friend or two.
A customer who has a negative experience tends to tell everyone they know, as well as strangers in pubs.
In my opinion that is why steinberg takes such a beating, poor customer service, poor initial impressions, some unbelievable responses to problems on their forum - often intimating that it is obviously the user or their hardware at fault - definately not SX etc.
These things stick in peoples minds & are repeatedly told to others, a few bad dongle issues, driver conflicts etc. & then immediately people are receptive to the accusations by H20 about the inefficiency of the code etc. - they are willing to believe negative publicity, due to the negative perceptions & experiences.
& to top it all off - no demo, or only a very limited demo if you buy another steinberg product or a woefully out of date one if you buy an instructional book (& if the accusation is then made that they may be trying to hide something it seems plausible).
As you say Sonars tactic is masterful, great bundles, networking, simple protection & a very helpful forum.
As a newbie I know which one i'd go for.

[stag]

The purpose of copy protections is to give some sense of importance to SX, in the process
giving the willing to pay pro user the impression their interests are taken in acount.
I think they know from the begining that Syncrosoft was crackable, what no one thougth was H20 had the patience to do it.
Well H20 did it, as ever they state on their disclaimer people migth use it only as a demo, anyway while they were at it, for the first time on a long while Steinberg became a profitable company, these are facts and figures, the intentions of H20 aren´t evil but unfortunatelly not every people are willing to pay for the software they use... it´s a damn pitty, cause in the end they are hurting themselves to.

Regarding Cubase.net, some of what´s said is true, but it seems some kind of racist statement, not all cubasers ask for dongles, or make jokes about it... not everyone is a snob there and most of the people that are really annoying about the dongle thing are most of the time studio owners, pro´s that feel that piracy is really endangering their incoming, because of unfair competition and by trivializing their weapon of choice as bedroom musos stuff, FYI many big audio names choose SX\Nuendo and other native apps over other apparently more established brands.

Anyway i like the people at the forum, i couldn´t careless for dongles but i understand that many people, mainly the developers and pro users are.

I´m sorry, i´m to dumb to figure out Sonar, Logic or Samplitude... Cubase it was making noise from the beggining without caring for manual reading et al, i believe SX fits my way of thinking and visualize things, where other apps fits other people ways.
Once i realized that, all the host wars become a little less entertaining... I think one must use what fits their aim but pay for it... if there is a budget live by it, there are a lot of not so expensive tools that are a lot of fun to use too.

bye.

[james0tucson]

I think you're not "supposed to be able to try cubase", rather, you're supposed to understand from the marketing that it's the only solution. Digi has something similar going on. Probably, the success of sites like KVR and certain magazines has changed some perceptions, but I still run into people who think Cubase is the only host that will run VST instruments, and also people who honestly believe ProTools is the only real choice for producing music on a computer. I'm totally serious. I'm not the type to try to argue with them. (The last "PT" guy is my barber. He's a damned good Conga player, and a pretty good hairstylist for a straight guy. And he honestly equates ProTools with computer recording.)

[diverdee]

True Stag, there are some nice geezers on the SX forums, people like Bas (who pops up here & is very helpful) for instance.
It's a good job there's decent knowledgeable users there, some of them should be paid by steinberg as they appear to be steinbergs tech support to all intents & purposes.
It's just a shame, I think that Steinberg/Yamaha or whoever need to do some serious thinking on the customer relation/perception front.
Doesn't bother me particularly, I gave my old copy of VST away & only know 2 people who still use SX, & one of them is gradually becoming more & more a FL only person & the other is seriously considering going Logic & mac & is currently also giving Sonar a tryout (he's unsure as he knows pc's, but finds Sonars workflow strange & knows he has a network of friends to rely on with Logic but is fairly ignorant concerning macs) due to persistent ASIO reset & outboard gear sync problems etc. - & he's no beginner or amateur.
He's likely stick with it & work through it - but it's been one issue after another for him & tech support has been non-existant to appaling, I don't even use SX & i've helped him more just from trawling through posts at cubase.net & relaying knowledge.

[diverdee]

Another possibility, of course, although I don't really think this could possibly be true , is that a build freed of dependency upon the Syncrosoft dongle exhibits strikingly different performance from those builds that are dependent on it.

I hate to say it, but I'd loooove to see how Cubase handles without the dongle. Probably the same, but I'd love to know.

Just ask H2O !

J/K

J/K maybe, but I personally know of one person who had problems with some USB audio gear who & SX who did 'ask' H2O, found that everything ran sweet (this was a while ago) without the need for a USB dongle & promtptly sold SX & went mac & logic. He only bought SX as logic dumped PC & he we wary of learning macs.
His Logic runs sweet for the most part, it's just MLAN that seems to create some strange probles every now & again - but it appears not many people are running 2 01X's in the same fashion as he is.
I'm not saying that's a universal thing - this was just one isolated instance, but...... there ya go.