how many are using sequencers and pluings today?

[LIMITAPROACHINGINFINITY]

HI

Isn't that example akin to saying 1 million people accepted a free motor car - but if they had to buy it - 66 people would have done so.

That is what an INTELLIGENT person WOULD have concluded.. But no one concluded that.. Do you see where im going with this..?

[BONES]

Sorry, I usually listen to my synths when I'm composing with them. I also usually listen to the music when I'm mixing it. You appear to be saying that that's irrelevant to the quality of music.

It is irrelevant to the physical quality, in technical terms, of the signal. Whilst it may have some small effect on your artistic decisions which could affect the finished product, by and large your ears will learn to compensate for any shortcomings of your equipment.

A software synth, in musical performance terms, is only as good as the human interface the computer offers the musician, and if I know you, you know that better than most.

That's true in terms of GUI but I can work just as effectively on my portable Walkperson speakers when I'm travelling as I can on my studio monitors.

He meant when you by a CD of his band, NONE of the sounds ever went through an analog stage before your stereo's D/A converter to play the cd with, except for amybe a few drum samples.

Not even them. Technically you could say my vocals went through an A/D stage but as I don't really get to hear them until they are already recorded, that too is irrelevant.

[pHz]

'walkperson' ???

warren ... youve gone all PC on us !!!

slainte rob

[rounser]

He didn't put walkperson in bold, either. Maybe that's just for registered trademarks.

[fateamenabletochange]

well for me software has been an intro to hardware....and I will keep learning and buying both.I enjoy 'playing' ....fingers on keys.

[BONES]

So buy a controller. I have to admit my softsynths sound ten time better when I play them through my controller.

[fateamenabletochange]

misunderstanding.....midi controller led to getting a JX 10

[HanafiH]

Sorry, I usually listen to my synths when I'm composing with them. I also usually listen to the music when I'm mixing it. You appear to be saying that that's irrelevant to the quality of music.

It is irrelevant to the physical quality, in technical terms, of the signal. Whilst it may have some small effect on your artistic decisions which could affect the finished product, by and large your ears will learn to compensate for any shortcomings of your equipment.

Well then I'm very confused. I recall very clearly your points in an oscillators debate a few months back, in which you described in quite some detail the importance of subtle differences in PWM quality between various oscillator designs. You appear to be stating here that these subtle differences don't actually matter, or reduce to minor issues, because in judging them creatively your ears, and presumably the listner's ears, will adapt to them. Arguing it boths ways is opportunist, either subtle differences matter creatively, or they don't.

The point I'm arguing is that subtle difference do matter, and this reflected in the practice of buying the best soundcards, computers, keyboards, controllers and monitors that the budget allows, and that this is a universal dependency of all soft synths - the hidden hardware cost.

A software synth, in musical performance terms, is only as good as the human interface the computer offers the musician, and if I know you, you know that better than most.

That's true in terms of GUI but I can work just as effectively on my portable Walkperson speakers when I'm travelling as I can on my studio monitors.

Then why do you own presumably expensive studio monitors? If you want sheer volume an old PA would by that argument be just as good, or the PA you use live. If the portables are no different from the monitors, why own them?

[The Chase]

Hanafih are just trying to be difficult by taking everything he said there to the extreme? is there no grey area with you?

[HanafiH]

In another thread, I advanced the proposition that the reduction in cost and availability of music production tools had brought about a democratisation of the art form. Such democratisation happened hundreds of years ago in other form of arts, the only resisting field were film making and music. You surmise that such a democratisation in music is bad, that's where we part; it wasn't bad for painting, sculpture or writing and more recently photography, in fact it brought about an explosion of creativity apparent in the diversity of what we can admire today, so I can't see why it would be bad for music and film.

I'm very suspect of the use of the phrase 'the democratisation of music', what I think it's meant to mean is that the means of modern music production have moved out of the financial control of a very few organisations, and become widely available to very many artists.

That would undoubtedly be a good thing, but it's not what has actually happened. To take the analogy you chose, that of modern fine art. It's not so much that the output is crap, but that the response to democratisation by the elite patrons of art, has been to drive art into a haze of over-theorisation in which 'art' has become something so codified that it has lost any resonance with ordinary people.

Piles of brick, urine drenched beds and sculptures formed from rat bodies, placed into galleries as reflexive comment on what art is. Equally, when the RA opens it's doors to 'amateur' artists each year what comes in through them tends to be derivative recyclings of historically great works and styles.

I think the same thing is happening in music, on the one hand whole genres are dissapearing up their own backsides as the rules of what is in and not in grow ever more exacting and perfected in thier expression, whilst so much of the 'amateur' output is nostalgically derivative of earlier works, my own music to a large extent, included.

The sheer scale of low grade output has created a kind of infinite cacophony, all noises made all at once, in which nobody really hears anything anymore.

[HanafiH]

Hanafih are just trying to be difficult by taking everything he said there to the extreme? is there no grey area with you?

Well now, it depends what you mean by grey. Actually, he's the only bastard here worth arguing with, because he really cares about what he does. And every now and then he actually persuades me with an argument.

[arke]

I did find the spreadsheet I made when I found the site I mentioned earlier.

These were the exact figures:

Product, Since, Units dowloaded, Retail Value
Antares Microphone modeler, 19-Dec-03, 4079, $811,721
Antares Auto Tune, 19-Dec-03, 1301, $388,999
Virsyn Tera 2, 18-Dec-03, 2055, $511,695
Antares Filter, 16-Dec-03, 3694, $587,346
Orion Platinum, 16-Dec-03, 5030, $850,070
NI Tractor 2.52, 14-Dec-03, 13067, $2,208,323
NI Absynth 2.04, 14-Dec-03, 1905, $379,095
Spin Audio Roomverb M2, 12-Dec-03, 4705, $446,975

Total Value $6,184,224

The sooner strong protection does happen, the better.

you are too funnay.

How many people will download something even if they don't know what it is? Lots.
How many people download things in order to be able to seed for others? Lots.
How many people will load this up, spend 10 minutes with it, and judge it "Krap" and throw it away? Lots.
How many people will actually keep this music making hobby for about a month before giving it up? Lots.

And last, but not least,

How many people will use the warez version of the software and then turn around and buy it because they liked it?. Lots. I assure you that at least 20% of our regular board members here have at one point or another used a warezed version of a software before making the decision to buy it.

Well now, it depends what you mean by grey. Actually, he's the only bastard here worth arguing with, because he really cares about what he does. And every now and then he actually persuades me with an argument.

Oh, I am SO sorry, I failed to realize you're an ignorant elitist. I am so sorry, I shall make sure you I'll leave both you and your ego plenty of room.

Ever realized that theres many people on these forums that care about the music? Ever realized that theres also plenty of people here who have actually released records? (Not putting down BONES' stuff of course, its great, but please, wake up)

[HanafiH]

[HanafiH]

I did find the spreadsheet I made when I found the site I mentioned earlier.

These were the exact figures:

Product, Since, Units dowloaded, Retail Value
Antares Microphone modeler, 19-Dec-03, 4079, $811,721
Antares Auto Tune, 19-Dec-03, 1301, $388,999
Virsyn Tera 2, 18-Dec-03, 2055, $511,695
Antares Filter, 16-Dec-03, 3694, $587,346
Orion Platinum, 16-Dec-03, 5030, $850,070
NI Tractor 2.52, 14-Dec-03, 13067, $2,208,323
NI Absynth 2.04, 14-Dec-03, 1905, $379,095
Spin Audio Roomverb M2, 12-Dec-03, 4705, $446,975

Total Value $6,184,224

The sooner strong protection does happen, the better.

you are too funnay.

How's this for a laugh. Nobody has said they noticed what I noticed when I compiled those figures: the brand choices. Put those products into a list without the download numbers, and make your own prediction which products would be most popular. OK a million people offered a free car would say yes, but what if they were offered any brand and make of car. How many would choose the Nissan Micra over the Aston Martin?

I would not have predicted that in a totally unconstrained situation that the synths would be the least downloaded products, or that Mic Modeller would be four times more popular than Autotune, or that Tracktor would be so overwhelmingly the product theft of choice. Says something about the market that does. It indicates concious choices being made with a degree of informed knowledge behind those choices.

[BONES]

Well then I'm very confused. I recall very clearly your points in an oscillators debate a few months back, in which you described in quite some detail the importance of subtle differences in PWM quality between various oscillator designs. You appear to be stating here that these subtle differences don't actually matter, or reduce to minor issues, because in judging them creatively your ears, and presumably the listner's ears, will adapt to them. Arguing it boths ways is opportunist, either subtle differences matter creatively, or they don't.

I think we are talking about a whole different level of difference here. Even the cheapest on-board audio chip is going to do a good enough job that those kinds of sdifferences will still be obvious. In fact the differences in PWM I was talking about are obvious on my laptop's built-in speakers.

The point I'm arguing is that subtle difference do matter, and this reflected in the practice of buying the best soundcards, computers, keyboards, controllers and monitors that the budget allows, and that this is a universal dependency of all soft synths - the hidden hardware cost.

My "hidden hardware cost" amounts to the cost of my 2nd-hand PCR-1 and my DM20 speakers, around $600 which is less than the cost of my long-gone K Station. I think way too many people put way to much emphasis on things that make no difference. I can't tell the difference between my on-board audio and my PCR-1 and I sincerely doubt an RME or anything else would present me any noticable improvement either. I've listened to loads of high end CD players and I can't tell the difference between any of them and my Walkperson and I've played my hardware directly into my monitors and through my audio device into my monitors [double D/A-A/D] and I cannot tell the difference.

Then why do you own presumably expensive studio monitors? If you want sheer volume an old PA would by that argument be just as good, or the PA you use live. If the portables are no different from the monitors, why own them?

As I sort of said, I do not have expensive monitors, my hi-fi speakers are worth 4 times as much, but again you are ignoring degrees when the object should be to find acceptable performance and value for money. Of course, in my hardware days I didn't have any monitors at all and my hi-fi speakers were utter krap.

I suppose it boils down to this:
I don't need to spend a lot of money to be able to do a good job and I'd rather put that money into a great hi-fi system so that I can thoroughly enjoy the results.