KVR Audio

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:44 am

Voxengo make some of the best plugins ever. They're not a big company - afaik, it's just Aleskey - so they sort of deserve for us to be understandable about any decisions they make, and then think... do we really care about this? Is it that much of a thorn in the side?

In this case, I would wager not.

Aleksey Vaneev · Post by **Aleksey Vaneev** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:17 am

SuperNashwan, new version release guarantees are not a part of a license agreement and this is generally against the common sense (it's like guaranteeing to invent an over-unity power generator). This was and is a POLICY (the way I interact with the customers). There are no legal (contractual) implications exist. Just to make this clear.

And thanks for support to everybody!

fgimian · Post by **fgimian** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:26 am

Chibs' Bath Toy wrote:Voxengo make some of the best plugins ever. They're not a big company - afaik, it's just Aleskey - so they sort of deserve for us to be understandable about any decisions they make, and then think... do we really care about this? Is it that much of a thorn in the side?

In this case, I would wager not.

exactly, this aint a big deal at all ... be happy

Cheers
Fots

mayan · Post by **mayan** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:35 am

I'm have been very involved with the legal system and at first, from a "theoretical" point of view (having been involved with consumer protection), I was -um- a little taken aback. But, I've read Aleksey's explanation and it is common-sensical to me. I don't think anyone is getting ripped -or will be getting ripped off. And let's face it -only you the reader can answer this- most if not all of us have bought Voxengo products for the quality and the responsiveness of the developer. Aleksey's update policies certainly weren't at the forefront of my mind when I plunked down money. Make no mistake, I've been very happy to have received the myriad of continual updates that I've received, but that's NOT why I purchased the products in the first place. Not as a lawyer but a musician and consumer, I can tell you that I do not personally feel ripped off by this slight change in course.

Patrick de Caumette · Post by **Patrick de Caumette** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:45 am

Aleksey has been giving us free upgrades for years.
I find this new poilcy totally normal.

I'm surprised it didn't happen earlier...

PeterL · Post by **PeterL** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:04 am

Patrick de Caumette wrote:Aleksey has been giving us free upgrades for years.
I find this new poilcy totally normal.

I'm surprised it didn't happen earlier...

I agree. You're welcome, Aleksey.
People, compare to most other companies which release
2-3 updates for v1 and then switch to v2 you have to pay for.
Also the price/quality ratio is incredible for Voxengo products (Compare to Waves if you're in doubt

).

orangesuite · Post by **orangesuite** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:13 am

I dont see what the fuss is about, look at all the extra features / fixes that have been included in the plugins from a x.2 to x.2.5 release. Look at Soniformer at least. Also, voxengo bug fixes happen between major updates which is something that alot of developers dont do. If the jumop between 2.5 and 2.6 of a product is that big technically and feature-wise then I dont mind paying for a major version upgrade. The only downside of this is that I can imagine people expecting the major release updates to be a complete overhaul.

Aleksey Vaneev · Post by **Aleksey Vaneev** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:44 am

orangesuite, this is my vision as well - major version update IS something at least partially new and beneficial overall. Not something based on incremental updates. Practice says that implementing small improvements (additional modes) is not a problem, but implementing some totally new features usually requires total reworking of the plug-in (so called 'refactoring'). And so I leave such feature requests for major future version.

ceenda · Post by **ceenda** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:57 am

Sounds fair to me. Keep up the good work Aleksy.

AKJ · Post by **AKJ** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:00 am

Hi,

this is how I see it (and I got quite some Voxengo plugs):

a) there is no way that one party of a contract can change the terms without the permission of the other party. It does not matter if money was involved. It is a contract. It also does not matter if thgsi was mentioned in the licence agreement, because Aleksey clearly stated that free upgrades up to version 2.9 were garanteed to customers. Some might have made their decision to buy the product on that basis.

However:
a) it is correct that Aleksey was adding a lot of features to his plugs without increasing the major version number
b) if the update price is moderate: why not. Maybe, you announce the percentage of the original price an update will be and then
c) you change the policy for all future customer and ask your existing customers individually how they opt: getting free uodates until V2.9 and having to pay the full price for v3 (and become a new customere then) or pay moderate udate prices for all major updates.

I think this would be most fair.

cheers, akj

AKJ · Post by **AKJ** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:03 am

btw, Aleksey: if you make major improvements to existing plugs you may find also new customers who buy the product and you never can predict how many customers will update. so I doubt that the new policy is more prdictable. I think the savest bet is in any case: make a great updates, but I am quite sure you will not disappoint us

AVBunyan · Post by **AVBunyan** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:12 pm

I'll weigh in here - I own just 2 plugs but in my dealings with Aleksey I have found him to be an upfront and honest person to do business with. My perception here is that Alex may be learning some things as he goes along and it appears to me he is asking us to just bear with him - an honest and sincere request in my eyes.

1. How many owners of businesses do we know that responds to e-mails personally when you have issues?
2. How many owners do we know that seem to really have a passion for their own work just so they can see them work for others?
3. How many owners do we know that try to be as upfront as Alex tries to be?

Not saying other owners are not like the above but Alex is - experienced it personally..

I'm "plugged out" right now - I'm not searching for any other plugs anymore right now but...but... I will always see what Alex is up to for he has earned my respect and appears to be really good at what he does.

The man is trying to make an honest living and being up front aboout it and appears to be asking us to be understanding.

Hey Alex - I am willing to go along and it appears many others are also.

God bless

cptgone · Post by **cptgone** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:20 pm

Aleksey Vaneev wrote:This policy will be effective from now on and applies to all past purchases as well.

That doesn't sound fair to me. People bought your products, expecting 2 free major updates. You can't just change the deal after it's closed.

OTOH, I have no beef with your new policy itself.

Aleksey Vaneev · Post by **Aleksey Vaneev** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:44 pm

cptgone and AKJ, there was no 'deal' about updates. I was *planning* to offer two major updates for the cost of one version, but that was not tied to a contractual obligation. What is tied is contained in the license agreement (license transfers, etc.). So, as was already stated, this is ethically incorrect - not legally incorrect.

Anyway, this should have been opened for a discussion. It's better to resolve all pains right away than have a strike in the future.

AKJ · Post by **AKJ** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:05 pm

Alksey, I think ethically it is correct for you to ask the money you need and it is well justified considering the quality of your proiducts and the low price, but legally it's incoprrect. no matter what the license agreement saays: if you made a statement about free upgrade version thatr is a part of the contract. even if you just said orially to me, oh, and I will plugin for free if you buy that other one and I then agree to buy that other one, this would be a valid contract, although it would be difficult for the buyer to provide proof for your oral statement. in this case it's quite clear: the users remember it, it was written on your webpage and you also agree that it was the like this before. ask your lawyer. but as I said, I might very well opt for the upgrade path, but I find it unfair to say: I changed it you have to deal with it. I still find your plugs to be the best and appreciate your work a lot. also your new policy won't stop me to buy new plugsw. I find it better that way... (what will stop me is: challenge/response)

chhers akj

Voxengo commercial product version upgrade policy change