Voxengo commercial product version upgrade policy change

[whyterabbyt]

AKJ; firstly, you're assuming that oral contracts have equal validity in all legal systems. That may not in fact be true.

It would also appear that you are assuming that a description of an upgrade policy is legally equivalent to a contractual obligation. That is not necesarily true unless it is enshrined in the form of some sort of contractual agreement between the seller and the buyer, ie it would have to be part of the sales agreement ("This purchase entitles you to the following upgrade policy..."), not merely descriptive of what was, at the time, Aleksey's current practice.

[fac]

I think ethically it is correct for you to ask the money you need and it is well justified considering the quality of your proiducts and the low price, but legally it's incoprrect. no matter what the license agreement saays: if you made a statement about free upgrade version thatr is a part of the contract. even if you just said orially to me

It is not illegal at all. The only (if any) legally valid agreement is the license agreement shown with the plugins. The upgrade policy is never part of these agreement and may change at the developer's will. Upgrade policies are not promises; they are the way things are handled at a given time.

I don't know about other countries but in Mexico, the only valid contract is one that is signed by both parts. Now, in the case of Voxengo products, this sign (which is your email address) is given to Regsoft in the order page - where nothing about updates is specified. In other words, the "contract" you are "signing" for a Voxengo product only covers the sale of that product - nothing else. No other products, no new versions, no special offers. This is because promises can never be part of a contract as you can't sell something that doesn't exist yet (yes, preorders *are* illegal).

The previous upgrade policy stated something and Aleksey held to it. I'm sure lots of people bought CurveEQ 1.0 or Elephant 1.0, and are now enjoying the free 2.5 updates. But as of yesterday, that policy has changed. There's a new policy and I'm sure Aleksey will also hold to it.

If people still don't like it, look at it this way: instead of releasing CurveEQ 2.6, Aleksey could go for CurveEQ 3.0. Then maybe do a 3.1 and 3.2 and in less than a year there's CurveEQ 4.0. Now we all have to pay full price again for the new version (with the old policy). All he has to do is gather all those small extra features he does into one big update and no one would be able to complain. Wait, isn't that what most companies do? But Aleksey has chosen not to do that. Furthermore, he keeps releasing and updating his free plugs. I can't see how he doesn't charge $20 or $30 for something like Boogex (even though I've read his reasons).

In short, Aleksey is an honest and hardworking person. Anyone who bought his products based on his previous update policy is just plain stupid because those updates may have never happened. Just be happy that Voxengo is still on its feet (and doing well, I hope).

[AKJ]

well, maybe things are different in Mexico but
a) all agreements and promises that are made about a product are part of the contract
b) some paragraphs of a contract may be invalid even if they are not according to law

but as I said: it's best that Aleksey asks his lawyer as laws might be different in different countries.

ps: be assured: in Germany all oral agreements/contract have the same validity as written contracts (and so do all statements that are made about a product which lead to the purchase). they might be less valued for the reason of reliability.

[whyterabbyt]

well, maybe things are different in Mexico but
a) all agreements and promises that are made about a product are part of the contract

As I said, a description of practice is not the same as an agreement or a promise, ie they are not necessarily part of the Terms and Conditions of sale.

ps: be assured: in Germany all oral agreements/contract have the same validity as written contracts (and so do all statements that are made about a product which lead to the purchase). they might be less valued for the reason of reliability.

But Alexsey isnt in Germany.

[AKJ]

well, all updates util version x are free is a promise. also if you advertise the product is capable of this and that: you have to ensure thios to the customer, otherwise the customer may ask some money back (in German: Minderung) or you may agree to anulate the contract. In am sure about the legal practices in other countries, but it might be the same elswhere. But don't misundertsand me: I do not say that I personally will ask money from Aleksey back or that I am unhappy with the changed update policy. I am just saying: I doubt that it is legally ok to act like that, and that Aleksey should better chekc it with a lawyer. And I doubt that it is wise to act like that. better let exsisting customer opt for the old or the new scheme.

cheers, akj

[fac]

In any case, like I said, Aleksey did fulfill his old policy. If he had refused to give version 2.x to someone who had bought 1.x while the old policy was in effect, then we would have something to complain about. It's not like what Waves is doing with some of their customers (where they have to pay or else they won't be able to reinstall their current versions). We still have free updates up to a major one. If that "major one" happens to be 2.0, 3.0, or 4.0, it's just the same. Version numbers are in fact meaningless. Aleksey could just do like WaveArts and have all his products have the same version number with the same update. This makes all these update policy very tricky since the one who decides which update is minor or major, or which update is free or charged, is the developer. If people complain about the new policy, all Aleksey has to do is manipulate the version numbers and keep the old policy - for all I know, Crunchessor could already be in 2.x state and no one would complain, and when 3.0 came out people would want to upgrade but not pay full price again (I didn't even pay full price the first time).

I really think Aleksey is doing well in reviewing his upgrade politics. There's even more to think about: for example, if you bought a bundle how are upgrades going to be handled when only one of the plugs has crossed the "major update" line? If we can buy bundles, we would like bundle upgrades, not just single plugin upgrades.

I really think Aleksey must think about this and also about switching to a new version numbering system where all plugs in a bundle (if not *all* Voxengo plugs) keep the same major version number.

But hey, this is all good. It means Voxengo is getting bigger.

[cptgone]

a) all agreements and promises that are made about a product are part of the contract

Same here in Belgium. IIRC the update policy was on the Voxengo site, hence - to Belgian law, AFAIK - Voxengo has to respect it.

(Example: recently, a supermarket advertised an digital camera at strongly reduced price. However, there were only a few of these for sale. The Belgian judge said this was a kind of fraud. The supermarket was forced to sell more of the camera's at promo price.
If you advertise a price, not only are you bound by it, you also have to make sure you have a reasonable stock - unless maybe if you make it clear you only have a few products for sale. The advert caused expectations that are legally binding)

[cptgone]

But Alexsey isnt in Germany.

He does do business there, under jurisdiction of German law.

[fac]

"better let exsisting customer opt for the old or the new scheme. "

To be honest, akj, I don't think this is a good idea for Aleksey. First, I'm not sure he has the resources to keep up with two upgrading systems. Second, eventually all customers will have to be "moved" to the new scheme (as soon as they have to buy the new 3.x version), so why not do it right now? Also, as soon as updates start to flow, some customers will be glad they switched to the new system, and some others will be glad they didn't. This may cause even more frictions than what's going on right now.

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, and I get your point of view. But I really don't think one could take legal action against Aleksey about this issue (not that anyone's thinking of doing it - I'm just being hypotetical).

[rpc9943]

well what if we bought the plug from someone else? like I got my gliss eq for around $60 or so i think, maybe even less... what would we do if you upgraded gliss?

RonC

[martian]

im happy with the change. makes more sense. i think you should only get bug fixes, compatibility fixes and minor improvements for free. new features = paid upgrade. perfectly fair.

thanks aleksey.

[diverdee]

I haven't bought any voxengo products, but they're comparatively cheap, fuckin quality & the guy is constantly updating - many of those free updates have accumulated to be pretty major.
Props to the guy for being fair & hardworking (IMO).

[whyterabbyt]

But Alexsey isnt in Germany.

He does do business there, under jurisdiction of German law.

Incorrect. Local law for one party does not automatically apply to both parties in internet transactions.

[whyterabbyt]

well, all updates util version x are free is a promise.

No, its a description of practice.

also if you advertise the product is capable of this and that: you have to ensure thios to the customer, otherwise the customer may ask some money back (in German: Minderung) or you may agree to anulate the contract.

Thats a completely separate issue.

[popsych]

But Alexsey isnt in Germany.

He does do business there, under jurisdiction of German law.

Incorrect. Local law for one party does not automatically apply to both parties in internet transactions.

^

Ditto.