KVR Audio

mark4man · Post by **mark4man** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:10 am

Tell me where I'm going wrong people...

To my ear...& with my music (jazz rock, west coast rock & fusion)...Precision Limiter sounds more transparent than Elephant (v 2.4.) I hit it with a semi-hot 32-Bit FP mix (SONAR), roll the input gain back a little bit on the stereo bus; & PL sounds cleaner.

I know Elephant upsamples to 192k; & my friends in the mastering boards are telling me it specs out with far less intersample peaks; & that they like it much better...but just today, I tried a comparison with one of our best mixes. The intro in this song doesn't bust the ceiling until the bass & vocals drop in after 8 bars...starting out with drums then piano. Elephant actually changes the sonic character of that intro, which rides along under 0dB, as I said. PL left the intro alone; & where it does saw off the peaks it's hardly noticeable.

So where am I going wrong? I was using it in EL-2, which is about as automatic & transparent as you can get, right? Or should I be going with AIGC-3 or 4?

Is there a setting that doesn't pass audio thru any filters, like PL (meaning only compressed gain is affected.) Why is this thing not as clean as I had heard? I actually wan't to use this limiter on my upcoming CD, as I realize the less intersample peaks in the redbook final, the less tendency for the music to break up on the listener at higher volumes. But not if it imparts too much character, ya' know?

Thanks,

mark4man

Dell Dimension 8250 / Windows XP
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SONAR XL 2.2
SONAR4
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Aleksey Vaneev · Post by **Aleksey Vaneev** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:32 pm

Glad you've finally posted this message on KVR (Voxengo Elephant support forum does not have a big exposure and is not a good place to discuss differences between competing products).

Again, I would suggest you to post an example so that differences you are hearing can be compared first hand.

electro · Post by **electro** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:45 pm

Elephant2 could use a sample accurate light that is illuminated whenever there is any compression, and dark, when there is none.

Also, when using 4X oversampling and clip limiting & 44.1Khz , there are overs.

OMU · Post by **OMU** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:02 pm

What kept me away from Elephant was that there are too many options/settings. This thing confused me. Maybe someday I will give it another try but for now I want to go for the PL.
Some samples could be nice, maybe a shootout test with the major limiters out there...

electro · Post by **electro** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:06 pm

Elephant2 is not complicated at all. You only really have a main threshold control to worry about. Turn the In button to the right and you get more limiting. Turn it to the left and you get less. Very easy.

Killvehicle · Post by **Killvehicle** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:15 pm

Yeah defintly easy For Elephant, I have Waves L2 and I thought Elephant was better for what I do, I think Elephant is the best digital limiter on the block,

Lazlo Minimart · Post by **Lazlo Minimart** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:34 pm

I generally find the PL and Elephant very similar, though I think Elephant can preserve transients better in EL2 or EL3 mode at 4x oversampling than the PL. The PL seems to "round" things a little more. There are times when I prefer one to the other, and it usually comes down to whether I want the mix to preserve transients and remain crisp (in which case I usually prefer Elephant [EL2/3, 4x]) or whether the mix is too transient-heavy and needs rounding and/or the bottom preserved (in which case I usually prefer PL in mode B).

mark4man · Post by **mark4man** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 am

Wow...

Now these are are some good responses. Thanks very much.

Again, I would suggest you to post an example so that differences you are hearing can be compared first hand.

Yes...will do that...was thinking of 3 snippets...unprocessed, PL & Elephant on the first 12 or 15 bars of the song I mentioned, where the first 8 bars are under 0dB & the rest over. Will try & get them up on my test server tonite, if I have time.

The PL seems to "round" things a little more. There are times when I prefer one to the other, and it usually comes down to whether I want the mix to preserve transients and remain crisp (in which case I usually prefer Elephant [EL2/3, 4x]) or whether the mix is too transient-heavy and needs rounding and/or the bottom preserved (in which case I usually prefer PL in mode B).

Elephant the crisper of the two? That's weird...I thought PL was a might sharper (but...this is why I have to tweak those settings.).

Now...on the aforementioned song on EL-2...Elephant gave it almost a rich analog character (not that I didn't like that.) It made the kick drum sound luscious. That was the difference I noticed the most...it made the drums deeper.

Will try & get those clips up ASAP.

Thanks again,

mark4man

DannyZ · Post by **DannyZ** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:43 am

I had some unreasonable expectations of Elephant and got really disappointed with it so I decided to buy something else (hardware limiter). Elephant is not as transparent as it claims to be and it does modify the overall spectrum in a very digital way (in my very subjective opinion). Also, I don’t like when digital plugins are trying to sound like their analog brothers and sisters, somehow it always ends up sounding very grainy and unpleasant (again in my very subjective opinion). In fact, I own two very unique Neve modules and I don’t like them either (I use them only when clients are requesting this Neve thingy). I think Neves are also a bit grainy and metallic even with super good mics….

Sorry guys I’m falling asleep and my message is getting all convoluted and negative I actually meant to say that Elephant is a great plug in but not what I wanted for my productions.

OMU · Post by **OMU** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:18 am

What hardware limiter did you buy?
Is it L2 maybe?

Aleksey Vaneev · Post by **Aleksey Vaneev** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:51 pm

DannyZ, Elephant never pretended to sound like 'analog' device. Beside that many depends on how you set it up. There's no 'magic' setting which suits EVERY music material you run through it. And of course, extreme loundess maximization is not a good benchmark for it.

DannyZ · Post by **DannyZ** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:21 pm

What hardware limiter did you buy?
Is it L2 maybe?

I’m not insane,

it’s 2006 over here and nobody buys this L2 poop. I made an investment into the SLAM! Stereo Limiter And Micpre. I track with it, I mix with it, I master with it and I sleep with it

. This thing is full of magic elixir.

There's no 'magic' setting which suits EVERY music material you run through it.

Well there is no such thing we all know that. Moreover, I stay away from limiters and compressors as much as I can and use them only when I know it’s absolutely necessary and this is like 99% of the time

.

OMU · Post by **OMU** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:47 pm

"I’m not insane, it’s 2006 over here and nobody buys this L2 poop."
He he.
Almost every mastering engineer is still using it. Many of them consider it better then L3. I find it very good also.
The other versions I heard of being used among them were PL and Elephant and sometimes the Sony Oxford and RML one.
These are pretty much all the names on the list with L2 being used by the vast majotiry. Not the home user but the big mastering names.

feyshay · Post by **feyshay** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:07 pm

What do you all think of Finis from elemental audio?

electro · Post by **electro** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:43 pm

The Hardware L2 has a high end Analog front end, before the signal reaches ever the L2 algorithim. The front end is the part that the Mastering engineers probably like as opposed to the L2 algo.

Aleksey, check your PM.

Elephant vs. PL...Is PL more transparent ???