I've been looking into Sonar recently (in particular the Sonar 5 demo) as I've never really looked into Sonar before. There's a lot to like. Decent mixer, good piano roll, 'useable' score support, etc.
However, I'm a little frustrated with GPO and EWQLSO in it so far.
The problem is, when I add an instance of Kontakt, I usually want access to the 8 audio outs, but this fills up the track list with 8 Kontakt tracks. If I wanted to add 4 players for Brass, Wind, Strings and Percussion section, I would end up with 32 tracks and 32 midi tracks to control them. 64 tracks in total filling up the screen with only half containing midi note and controller data.
The track list starts to look a bit bewildering, and aside from the small DXI and MIDI icons, hard to pick them out easily.
Is it possible to:
1. Hide everything apart from MIDI tracks.
2. Have 1 instance of kontakt player in a track, but still have the 8 channels available in the mixer?
Sonar and multi-out plugins.
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- KVRAF
- 7110 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
Yes, you can hide tracks. If this goes only for trackview and concole view separately, I'm not sure. It's a mark and rightclick Hide thing(check helpfile).
But minimizing each audio track and drag and drop them at bottom of trackview, making them scroll out of view is another way to do it. You easily change the position of a track by just dragging in the left part.
And I see no reason why you could not just delete certain tracks that is not used in an instance of Kontakt, after you started an new instance etc. So each instance can be adapted to which instrument are actually used there.
But minimizing each audio track and drag and drop them at bottom of trackview, making them scroll out of view is another way to do it. You easily change the position of a track by just dragging in the left part.
And I see no reason why you could not just delete certain tracks that is not used in an instance of Kontakt, after you started an new instance etc. So each instance can be adapted to which instrument are actually used there.
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- KVRian
- 694 posts since 6 Aug, 2002 from London, UK
And use track folders (SONAR 4 and SONAR 5).
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3627 posts since 5 Jan, 2006 from UK
Thanks for the quick response guys. I knew there had to be a way of handling large numbers of tracks.
Just group-selected the Kontakt channels and sent them to a new folder. Now the track list is nice and tidy. 
Argh, of course!kp wrote:And use track folders (SONAR 4 and SONAR 5).
Just group-selected the Kontakt channels and sent them to a new folder. Now the track list is nice and tidy. -
harmony gardens harmony gardens https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=12815
- KVRian
- 830 posts since 19 Feb, 2004 from Richland Center, Wisconsin
Hi Fandango. I'm a Sonar user, and what you are talking about with multiple tracks is something I really wish they would improve. Project 5 is much much better in the way it handles softsynths, IMHO. That said, there are a few tricks that make Sonar manageable. When you set up a multi output synth through the synth rack, the dialog box allows you to select all available outputs, or just one. Usually your synth will allow you to select the number of audio outs, and Sonar remembers the setting you last used. It should be in the preferences/options menu on your softsynth.
You need to add the extra midi tracks manually.
The best way I've found to solve the situation with the two tracks per channel, is to put the midi tracks for that instance into a track folder, and all the audio tracks into another one. For example, if I'm using Sampletank, I go to the synth rack, select Sampletank, and check all audio tracks in the dialog box. I have my audio outs in Sampletank set to 8, so Sonar loads 8 audio tracks, and one midi track. Highlight all these audio tracks, right click, and select move to folder. Label the folder Sampletank Audio. Then, clone the midi track, say, 7 times and you now have 8 midi tracks. Now, set the outputs for each midi track to a subsequent tracks. (eg, set the first midi track to output to channel 1, the second to channel 2, etc. Highlight those tracks, right click and select add to folder. Name the folder Sampletank midi tracks.
This allows you to close out the audio tracks while you're working on your midi tracks, and close the midi tracks when you're adjusting the audio.
This is definately a bit of a PITA, but the good news is you can save these set ups as a templet in the full version, so you only have to do each set up once. It cuts the track real estate in half. HTH
You need to add the extra midi tracks manually.
The best way I've found to solve the situation with the two tracks per channel, is to put the midi tracks for that instance into a track folder, and all the audio tracks into another one. For example, if I'm using Sampletank, I go to the synth rack, select Sampletank, and check all audio tracks in the dialog box. I have my audio outs in Sampletank set to 8, so Sonar loads 8 audio tracks, and one midi track. Highlight all these audio tracks, right click, and select move to folder. Label the folder Sampletank Audio. Then, clone the midi track, say, 7 times and you now have 8 midi tracks. Now, set the outputs for each midi track to a subsequent tracks. (eg, set the first midi track to output to channel 1, the second to channel 2, etc. Highlight those tracks, right click and select add to folder. Name the folder Sampletank midi tracks.
This allows you to close out the audio tracks while you're working on your midi tracks, and close the midi tracks when you're adjusting the audio.
This is definately a bit of a PITA, but the good news is you can save these set ups as a templet in the full version, so you only have to do each set up once. It cuts the track real estate in half. HTH
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3627 posts since 5 Jan, 2006 from UK
harmony gardens: Yep, now that I'm using folders to group things together, the process seems a lot easier.
Also, I've just been looking at one of the Cakewalk demo videos where they talk about the Track Presets (the same thing templates you're referring to?) that allow you to recall a synth, all it's channels, all it's mixer buses and everything so that you don't have to do it each time you want to use the synth. Definately a time saver.
One of the things I love about energyXT is that plugins themselves don't actually appear on the sequencer track at all. They appear on the mixer and the MIDI tracks are routed through to them. Also, you can just add the synth and, should you wish to use the extra outputs, just enable them in the eXT mixer and you can add or subtract as many outputs as you like. Though, it's not really fair to compare 2 different paradigms.
But yes, after some initial confusion, I'm getting used to Sonar's way of doing things.
Also, I've just been looking at one of the Cakewalk demo videos where they talk about the Track Presets (the same thing templates you're referring to?) that allow you to recall a synth, all it's channels, all it's mixer buses and everything so that you don't have to do it each time you want to use the synth. Definately a time saver.
One of the things I love about energyXT is that plugins themselves don't actually appear on the sequencer track at all. They appear on the mixer and the MIDI tracks are routed through to them. Also, you can just add the synth and, should you wish to use the extra outputs, just enable them in the eXT mixer and you can add or subtract as many outputs as you like. Though, it's not really fair to compare 2 different paradigms.
But yes, after some initial confusion, I'm getting used to Sonar's way of doing things.
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- KVRAF
- 2401 posts since 29 Dec, 2002 from In the dark
I've been a long time Sonar user, but I must admit that I am getting a bit fed up with it now. I paid for the S5 upgrade, so I will probably not switch immidiately yet, but I can not recommend it to others anymore with confidence. The S5 upgrade had some very good other goodies included that made it worth the while.
I am pretty happy wit the way it handles multi tracks, but it still has flaws. Changing what you see on the track view and the mixer view are not in sync and you can get very confused at times. The track folders work nicely to tidy up the screen, but folders are not saved when you use track templates and you will have to move thing into folders each time you start a new project.
(PS, my main gripes are with the piano roll view, which used to be my main working area, but has now become a pain to work with.)
I am pretty happy wit the way it handles multi tracks, but it still has flaws. Changing what you see on the track view and the mixer view are not in sync and you can get very confused at times. The track folders work nicely to tidy up the screen, but folders are not saved when you use track templates and you will have to move thing into folders each time you start a new project.
(PS, my main gripes are with the piano roll view, which used to be my main working area, but has now become a pain to work with.)
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 14 Apr, 2005 from Los Angeles, CA
Hi Sepheritoh,Sepheritoh wrote:The track folders work nicely to tidy up the screen, but folders are not saved when you use track templates and you will have to move thing into folders each time you start a new project.
Actually Track Folders are saved with your Track Templates. Check your Template filter options and enable "folders". It is off by default (not sure why...). Folders are recalled just fine with my Track Templates.
The track and mixer views have the ability to hide tracks and channels independantly so you can hide a track, but still control it's mixer settings if needed. I can see however how someone might want the option to have one affect the other. Please make a feature request if you feel strongly about it.
Is there something specific that is bugging you about the piano roll now?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3627 posts since 5 Jan, 2006 from UK
Brandon: Apologies if I'm cross-posting the obvious (and putting words in Sepheritoh's mouth, if so, I'll remove the quote and link), but I've just been reading a thread with a fair amount concerns about the v5.0 piano roll at http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=686346 which might have slipped under the radar.
I agree that Cakewalk has really messed up with the piano roll view this time. The disapearance of the note values in the corner is a bad oversight. Something else that really bugs me as well is the fact that the grid display values in the piano roll view does not change with the snap-to grid values changes any more. Now I hve to change both manually. Another thing they broke in the piano roll is the controller pane. In Sonar 4 when I dragged the controller pane devider up it would drag the bottom up with the pane. Now they anchored the bottom part and dragging the controller pane up simnply enlarge the pane.
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- KVRAF
- 2401 posts since 29 Dec, 2002 from In the dark
Thank you very much for your response.
The aspects about the piano that bugs me (and I did report it on CW's feature request form) are:
1. The missing note information. Previously I could hover the cursor over a note to see it's value. Now that space has been replaced by the (very usefull) drop down box. There is more than enough other space available to bring the text display back again.
2. When re-drawing midi cpntrollers with the mouse the cursor often gets stuck on one of the handles. These handles are pretty and usefull for velocity etc, but not much for continious controllers like midi CC value 11 (or midi CC value 1 for GPO).
3. When drawing controllers previously I dragged the controller pane up to display the blank area below the controller pane. That provided a nice way of deleting controllers and gave more scope for precision when drawing volume controllers for GPO with fade ins and outs on notes. Now that hs been taken away and dragging the pane up simply enlarges the pane.
4. The snap to grid and the grid display on the piano roll works independantly. Previously I could change the grid display options only from eg quarter to sixteenth notes and the display changed as well. That does not work anymore and require me to change it twice.
5. A feature that has been long outstanding is to lock audio clips to SMPTE time. Eg when doing a film score some sound effects clips need to be inserted and never move again as I change midi tempo somewhere else in the project.
These seems like small things, but when composing with GPO these things are slowing me down seriously.
As mentioned before I am very happy with the new featured like the V Vocal and track folders make things very usefull. I am very happy that you gave me a great pointer now to solve one of the issues.
The aspects about the piano that bugs me (and I did report it on CW's feature request form) are:
1. The missing note information. Previously I could hover the cursor over a note to see it's value. Now that space has been replaced by the (very usefull) drop down box. There is more than enough other space available to bring the text display back again.
2. When re-drawing midi cpntrollers with the mouse the cursor often gets stuck on one of the handles. These handles are pretty and usefull for velocity etc, but not much for continious controllers like midi CC value 11 (or midi CC value 1 for GPO).
3. When drawing controllers previously I dragged the controller pane up to display the blank area below the controller pane. That provided a nice way of deleting controllers and gave more scope for precision when drawing volume controllers for GPO with fade ins and outs on notes. Now that hs been taken away and dragging the pane up simply enlarges the pane.
4. The snap to grid and the grid display on the piano roll works independantly. Previously I could change the grid display options only from eg quarter to sixteenth notes and the display changed as well. That does not work anymore and require me to change it twice.
5. A feature that has been long outstanding is to lock audio clips to SMPTE time. Eg when doing a film score some sound effects clips need to be inserted and never move again as I change midi tempo somewhere else in the project.
These seems like small things, but when composing with GPO these things are slowing me down seriously.
As mentioned before I am very happy with the new featured like the V Vocal and track folders make things very usefull. I am very happy that you gave me a great pointer now to solve one of the issues.
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 14 Apr, 2005 from Los Angeles, CA
No problem fandango. Actually I was just reading that thread this morning (I'm sure other Cakewalkers will notice as well, but thanks for bringing it to attention anyway), but I started losing interest when some were complaining about the controller pane being gonefandango wrote:Brandon: Apologies if I'm cross-posting the obvious (and putting words in Sepheritoh's mouth, if so, I'll remove the quote and link), but I've just been reading a thread with a fair amount concerns about the v5.0 piano roll at http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=686346 which might have slipped under the radar.
I agree that Cakewalk has really messed up with the piano roll view this time. The disapearance of the note values in the corner is a bad oversight. Something else that really bugs me as well is the fact that the grid display values in the piano roll view does not change with the snap-to grid values changes any more. Now I hve to change both manually. Another thing they broke in the piano roll is the controller pane. In Sonar 4 when I dragged the controller pane devider up it would drag the bottom up with the pane. Now they anchored the bottom part and dragging the controller pane up simnply enlarge the pane.
(which it isn't) so I'm sometimes hesitant to reply until I can check these things out for myself or see if things have not just been changed to work another way. I still don't understand the pane re-sizing issue but I'll look into it when I get some time. For my piano-roll work I've found S5 to be an improvement over the previous versions. Not to say that depending on one's workflow that there may not be legitimate gripes but I can't reallly comment until I can delve in for myself and be sure there is not just another way of doing things or displaying the information (i.e the controller pane issue).-
- KVRist
- 140 posts since 14 Apr, 2005 from Los Angeles, CA
Thanks very much for your clarifications. I'm recovering from NAMM but will try to address these over in the SONAR forum. I can tell you off the top of my head that #5 is understood and is being addressed. Thanks again Sepheritoh and we really do appreciate and value your feedback.Sepheritoh wrote:Thank you very much for your response.
The aspects about the piano that bugs me (and I did report it on CW's feature request form) are:
1. The missing note information. Previously I could hover the cursor over a note to see it's value. Now that space has been replaced by the (very usefull) drop down box. There is more than enough other space available to bring the text display back again.
2. When re-drawing midi cpntrollers with the mouse the cursor often gets stuck on one of the handles. These handles are pretty and usefull for velocity etc, but not much for continious controllers like midi CC value 11 (or midi CC value 1 for GPO).
3. When drawing controllers previously I dragged the controller pane up to display the blank area below the controller pane. That provided a nice way of deleting controllers and gave more scope for precision when drawing volume controllers for GPO with fade ins and outs on notes. Now that hs been taken away and dragging the pane up simply enlarges the pane.
4. The snap to grid and the grid display on the piano roll works independantly. Previously I could change the grid display options only from eg quarter to sixteenth notes and the display changed as well. That does not work anymore and require me to change it twice.
5. A feature that has been long outstanding is to lock audio clips to SMPTE time. Eg when doing a film score some sound effects clips need to be inserted and never move again as I change midi tempo somewhere else in the project.
These seems like small things, but when composing with GPO these things are slowing me down seriously.
As mentioned before I am very happy with the new featured like the V Vocal and track folders make things very usefull. I am very happy that you gave me a great pointer now to solve one of the issues.
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- KVRAF
- 2401 posts since 29 Dec, 2002 from In the dark
Brandon.
Sorry, if I can please explain the pane resize thing a bit better. Take any track with midi notes and draw a fade in envelop by freehand. Now, let's say you have been slightly shakey like me and the zero crossing was not exactly where the note starts (it starts earlier than the note) and you have to fine tune that starting point. Firstly, the curson will grab the little handles all the time, but let's leave that problem for the moment. The most accurte way I used before was to drag the pane up leaving empty space below. Now I can simply drag the mouse cursor (while holding left button) below the pane and the controllers get erased. It will leave a zero controller at the last point where I release the mouse button. It is also much more accurate to re-draw the controlers by comming from below and draw the fade in with a left-to-right and upwards mouse movement.
I hope this makes sense. It seems like I was the only one working this way then.
Sorry, if I can please explain the pane resize thing a bit better. Take any track with midi notes and draw a fade in envelop by freehand. Now, let's say you have been slightly shakey like me and the zero crossing was not exactly where the note starts (it starts earlier than the note) and you have to fine tune that starting point. Firstly, the curson will grab the little handles all the time, but let's leave that problem for the moment. The most accurte way I used before was to drag the pane up leaving empty space below. Now I can simply drag the mouse cursor (while holding left button) below the pane and the controllers get erased. It will leave a zero controller at the last point where I release the mouse button. It is also much more accurate to re-draw the controlers by comming from below and draw the fade in with a left-to-right and upwards mouse movement.
I hope this makes sense. It seems like I was the only one working this way then.
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 14 Apr, 2005 from Los Angeles, CA
Ah, I think I understand. I must confess it has never been a problem for me personally but I don't really do the same work as you so I will definitely look into it when I get a moment and see if there is a solution or if one will need to be implemented. I'm sure this will be hashed out over in the other thread as well.Sepheritoh wrote:Brandon.
Sorry, if I can please explain the pane resize thing a bit better. Take any track with midi notes and draw a fade in envelop by freehand. Now, let's say you have been slightly shakey like me and the zero crossing was not exactly where the note starts (it starts earlier than the note) and you have to fine tune that starting point. Firstly, the curson will grab the little handles all the time, but let's leave that problem for the moment. The most accurte way I used before was to drag the pane up leaving empty space below. Now I can simply drag the mouse cursor (while holding left button) below the pane and the controllers get erased. It will leave a zero controller at the last point where I release the mouse button. It is also much more accurate to re-draw the controlers by comming from below and draw the fade in with a left-to-right and upwards mouse movement.
I hope this makes sense. It seems like I was the only one working this way then.
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- KVRist
- 110 posts since 17 May, 2004 from Palm Coast, FL
Just wanted to say I wholeheartedly agree with this.For my piano-roll work I've found S5 to be an improvement over the previous versions.
In particular, I'm loving the in-line piano roll. It makes so much sense to edit midi while lined up with the rest of the tracks. Actually I find myself needing the old piano roll view less and less as I can do most of my editing right in the track view now.
Bob