Miles'tone VST trumpet - Official Release

[daGuru]

New sample:
http://www.soundfonts.it/store/trumpet_vst_3.mp3

is it better now?

The last note is on the money

At the start, the wind sounds a bit like blowing bubbles... not constant firm pressure, it's not quite metallic enough for me, and yep when it goes pure tone (sine) it sounds synthetic, but MUCH better than previous demos

ps. Arturia have nailed this Trumpet thing, but your Sax beats theirs already hehe

[Jafo]

I hate to play the heavy, but criticism is the only way to improve -- and damn, I respect your work -- so here goes.

As an ex-trumpeter, I immediately spotted several flaws. First, it's just too damn regular. Period. The tone, the breath, the pitch are all far too even. A real trumpet responds more organically, more erratically, more dynamically -- less perfectly. Also, a human being is a complex, nondeterministic web of interactions, and all of these affect the final sound. Slight variations in breath and posture have large effects on the final note's tone and pitch.

But even if we accept the fiction of a Platonic trumpet and trumpeter, there are still issues. The pitch and tone should be more dynamic, more responsive -- louder is nonlinearly brighter. Louder notes usually overshoot the pitch and settle down, while softer often (but not always) do the reverse. Softer notes seem to have more air.

There's no blattiness, dammit!

Also, the note transitions are completely off. Valves make a certain noise and affect the pressure (and hence tone), and never transition so smoothly. Blowing the overtone series -- a trumpet is nothing more than a tube with valves to control its length -- always adds an audible puff of air and a "popping" kind of pressure.

Furthermore, each valve adds length to the tube, and changes the basic tone; a G and an F# in the treble clef (OK, an F and an E in actual pitch) are played with open and second fingering, respectively, and have different timbres. It's more than just "higher ntoes sound different from lower notes"; each fingering also sounds different from the others. Experienced band instrumentalists often develop something akin to perfect pitch -- on their instrument -- just from listening to these different tones. And when you consider the possibilities of alternate fingerings...

Don't get me wrong. I think this is one of the best simulations yet -- it's just that a trumpet is one of the most responsive, expressive instruments ever, and the programming is going to be insanely complex. I think you're taking the right approach, in that you seem to care most about expressiveness. That counts for more than absolute authenticity.

[Edit] Hmm, post #515. Can't resist the urge to make a Who reference...

"He man drag
In the glittering ballroom
Gravely outrageous
In my high heel shoes"

Sorry.

[benjamind]

Whew! That sounds just awesome! I can't wait for this thing to be polished. I wonder if there can be a flexible version where we can create our own brass instruments by setting parameters for the tubes, bells, and valves. I'm sure we could do a Piccolo, a Euphonium, Tuba, Contratuba, Alto Horn, Trombone, Cimbasso, etc.

It's all pretty much entirely possible now that you've proven that brass emulations that are highly expressive are indeed possible and that we are one step closer to a software equivalent of the VL70m.

[ZioKiller]

Very precious suggestions Jafo! I'll take care of what you say.

Btw I wish to add something: you talk about valves, fingerings and other things that you can do with a real trumpet. The problem is that with a simulated instrument you will use a piano keyboard for controlling, one key one note. So even the very best simulation in the world couldn't reach that level of realism, unless you have a "trumpet controller" (is there one?)

Btw, Jafo, I'd be glad to let you try this VSTi.
I'll send you a copy when I get back from work this evening.

Ah.. bad news: accidentally I've lost the Sax project... Damn!

[duncanparsons]

Check out Restoration undeleter. It's pretty good, and free... might help

DSP

[ZioKiller]

Oh, thanks... the problem is not that I've deleted the file... I've overwritten it. Shame on me!

[Jafo]

Very precious suggestions Jafo! I'll take care of what you say.

Btw I wish to add something: you talk about valves, fingerings and other things that you can do with a real trumpet. The problem is that with a simulated instrument you will use a piano keyboard for controlling, one key one note. So even the very best simulation in the world couldn't reach that level of realism, unless you have a "trumpet controller" (is there one?)

Btw, Jafo, I'd be glad to let you try this VSTi.
I'll send you a copy when I get back from work this evening.

Ah.. bad news: accidentally I've lost the Sax project... Damn!

Bummer on the overwrite. I hate that!

Valves and tube tonalities are going to be very tricky to perfectly emulate, perhaps impossible, but maybe you could add a little noise when notes change, and limit pitch-bend? Anyway, I'm probably being way too picky, and I really doubt anybody would hear the difference in a mix anyway.

I'd love to beta for you, but alas, my keyboard lacks aftertouch. Not to mention a pitch wheel. And a modulation wheel. Pretty minimal...

[luCiPHer]

i could test this for you, aftertouch is available (no breathcontroller, maybe later ).

[ZioKiller]

New sample:
http://www.soundfonts.it/store/trumpet_vst_4.mp3

I've added some more imperfections and a sort of something that could make you imagine something that remembers you the noise of the valves


Please also suggest a name!
"MrDavis" or "Miles'tone" ?

[Kel]

Lol this sounds even more expressive than Saxlab. congratulations.

Have you considered using samples in the Vst and applying them the effects after? well I dont know if this should be possible, but if you can't make the sound real could be a possibility, the expression is almost there.

If you are contrary to the use of samples in the vst, and you are going in the synthetical/physical modelling way, then forget what I said. Lol!

BTW: I've managed to sound very similar to commercial trumpet vst's with the use of soundfonts. What I couldn't get is the pitch and nuances, etc... that is the problem with samples.

[benjamind]

Ah bugger! I remember a few years ago I did something silly and lost one of my older projects, but I did get it back, I had it on backup so I was lucky. I hope you can get the sax back again somehow...best wishes.

[Ben H]

Hey there,

I think the trumpet is ok, though the tone is not quite there. And I understand how hard this is to emulate with PhM.

The sax on the other hand is quite good and as a sax player for 10 years I think it is coming close.

Maybe you should could hook up with Arturia (whose PhM trumpet I prefer) and fix their kazoo(sax) for them by selling them your model instead.

If I had both your sax and their trumpet I would be a happy man.

BTW keep up the good work because both show alot of promise.

[benjamind]

Yeah, I'll say that again Ben! It was a great emulation. I think the sax was accidentally overwritten as of a few posts back in this topic, so the sax looks doomed, hopefully only temporarily...I seriously hope that a backup is available or that it won't be too hard to get it up and running again, otherwise starting all over again from scratch would really suck.

[duncanparsons]

Oh, thanks... the problem is not that I've deleted the file... I've overwritten it. Shame on me!

try it anyway.. the way the allocation tables in both FAT and NTFS work may mean that there are sufficient fragments to piece it together. I could be wrong. Normally it's best to use that app as quickly after the delete as possible, so that fragments are still available...

Those samples are getting better. There is something about the tone.. The attack is good, and the expression control is masterful. I'm not sure if its a filter thing.. I assume you've done some freq analysis on some trumpet samples, and compared your output.. Whatever, this is very impressive

Oh, and MilesTone is a great name

DSP

[Gregjazz]

Sounding better and better!

Some suggestions:

- Somehow capture that initial "puff" of air that starts the note that is so characteristic of trumpet playing.

- When you do that trill the noise between the notes is a bit too loud.

The tone on the low/midrange notes needs a little work... maybe some sort of tone modeler or something. Real trumpets have a sort of stuffy, round, full sound to them.

Good job so far though!