A bass amp/cab sim project..have a listen

[championrabbit]

Since nobody is going to be able to hear your 30-50hz bass, what's the point?

Better to plant the bass somewhere in the middle of the kick drum, presuming that you want people to be able to hear the notes the bass is playing, non?

In terms of ampsims, there's absolutely no point filling frequencies that are immediately going to be removed since all it does is rob you of overhead.

Well thought out, but wrong I'm afraid.

You see, even though *you* might not hear them, or most of the world in fact, it's just these sub bass frequencies that make a lot of the difference between a great hi-end mixdown and a homebrewn demo sound. What made the bass demo so great, was the fact that these frequencies had been made count. Any normal amp sim will just generate mud around that area.

it's a common misconception there's no intelligent information around 40hz or so, and people just tend to cut it away. While this is a great practise on home systems, it's a cardinal error on world class mixdowns.

There also an unfortunate trend that while mastering, people cut all information below about 50hz. Again, it's an unfortunate side-effect of the home studio explosion.

Nice straw-man.

[bduffy]

Like I said, everything sounds great, but that low rumble does NOT belong in slap bass tone... it makes it sound muddy. Sorry, you can see how emotional I get about this.

Slap bass is one of the joys in my life...

Well what was that rumble? Sounded like there was an octaver on it.

[Hink]

Since nobody is going to be able to hear your 30-50hz bass, what's the point?

Better to plant the bass somewhere in the middle of the kick drum, presuming that you want people to be able to hear the notes the bass is playing, non?

In terms of ampsims, there's absolutely no point filling frequencies that are immediately going to be removed since all it does is rob you of overhead.

Well thought out, but wrong I'm afraid.

You see, even though *you* might not hear them, or most of the world in fact, it's just these sub bass frequencies that make a lot of the difference between a great hi-end mixdown and a homebrewn demo sound. What made the bass demo so great, was the fact that these frequencies had been made count. Any normal amp sim will just generate mud around that area.

it's a common misconception there's no intelligent information around 40hz or so, and people just tend to cut it away. While this is a great practise on home systems, it's a cardinal error on world class mixdowns.

There also an unfortunate trend that while mastering, people cut all information below about 50hz. Again, it's an unfortunate side-effect of the home studio explosion.

Nice straw-man.

actually I don't think he's wrong, I have been running my laptop while listening to cds, because of my whole set-up I can pipe my home entertainment center to and from my daw...so while listening I can watch how my spectrum analyzer responds to the cd...being an old fart with some young tastes I have a nice spread from about '65 to present (most of the present ones are the wifes). Because I use my 5 disc changer they flip flop around so I can compare different genres or eras at random.

I have found that a lot the music that is "bigger" is also using frequency ranges I wouldn't think of...where with some older stuff has very obvious shelves at the typical ranges of human hearing, some newer stuff is percieved as much louder, when some of it isn't as a result and it's obvious that some of the "unheard" frequencies still have an impact on audible frequencies.

AA has a spectrum analyzer that will freeze 4 parts, so I can save one and compare it to others...I just started this a couple weeks ago, it just occured to me...but it has been enlightening

[championrabbit]

Since nobody is going to be able to hear your 30-50hz bass, what's the point?

Better to plant the bass somewhere in the middle of the kick drum, presuming that you want people to be able to hear the notes the bass is playing, non?

In terms of ampsims, there's absolutely no point filling frequencies that are immediately going to be removed since all it does is rob you of overhead.

Well thought out, but wrong I'm afraid.

You see, even though *you* might not hear them, or most of the world in fact, it's just these sub bass frequencies that make a lot of the difference between a great hi-end mixdown and a homebrewn demo sound. What made the bass demo so great, was the fact that these frequencies had been made count. Any normal amp sim will just generate mud around that area.

it's a common misconception there's no intelligent information around 40hz or so, and people just tend to cut it away. While this is a great practise on home systems, it's a cardinal error on world class mixdowns.

There also an unfortunate trend that while mastering, people cut all information below about 50hz. Again, it's an unfortunate side-effect of the home studio explosion.

Nice straw-man.

actually I don't think he's wrong, I have been running my laptop while listening to cds, because of my whole set-up I can pipe my home entertainment center to and from my daw...so while listening I can watch how my spectrum analyzer responds to the cd...being an old fart with some young tastes I have a nice spread from about '65 to present (most of the present ones are the wifes). Because I use my 5 disc changer they flip flop around so I can compare different genres or eras at random.

I have found that a lot the music that is "bigger" is also using frequency ranges I wouldn't think of...where with some older stuff has very obvious shelves at the typical ranges of human hearing, some newer stuff is perceived as much louder, when some of it isn't as a result and it's obvious that some of the "unheard" frequencies still have an impact on audible frequencies.

AA has a spectrum analyzer that will freeze 4 parts, so I can save one and compare it to others...I just started this a couple weeks ago, it just occured to me...but it has been enlightening

1. We're talking about bass guitar, not an entire mix.

2. The presence of certain frequencies in a mix that you like doesn't necessarily imply that you like that mix because those frequencies are present...

[Kingston]

Well like it is with many things, you can either fight against the sub bass and cut it, or you can become aware of it and embrace it.

I'd recommend you study some american hi-end pop r'n'b mixes (often featuring slap/funk basses), as they usually have everything taken into account and sound great in regard to this.

Or you can ignore me and refuse to learn new things.

[edit]

besides, kilroy did start with a warning in the vein of "don't try this at home".

[WoJ]

Sounds nice, I love bass to be extremely boomy and explosive,... 'ow much 'ee it?

(also, since this thread seems the right place to ask, are there any good freeware bass cab/amp sims out there, i dont have a DI box and at the mo my bass sounds v.weak)

WoJ

[Hink]

Since nobody is going to be able to hear your 30-50hz bass, what's the point?

Better to plant the bass somewhere in the middle of the kick drum, presuming that you want people to be able to hear the notes the bass is playing, non?

In terms of ampsims, there's absolutely no point filling frequencies that are immediately going to be removed since all it does is rob you of overhead.

Well thought out, but wrong I'm afraid.

You see, even though *you* might not hear them, or most of the world in fact, it's just these sub bass frequencies that make a lot of the difference between a great hi-end mixdown and a homebrewn demo sound. What made the bass demo so great, was the fact that these frequencies had been made count. Any normal amp sim will just generate mud around that area.

it's a common misconception there's no intelligent information around 40hz or so, and people just tend to cut it away. While this is a great practise on home systems, it's a cardinal error on world class mixdowns.

There also an unfortunate trend that while mastering, people cut all information below about 50hz. Again, it's an unfortunate side-effect of the home studio explosion.

Nice straw-man.

actually I don't think he's wrong, I have been running my laptop while listening to cds, because of my whole set-up I can pipe my home entertainment center to and from my daw...so while listening I can watch how my spectrum analyzer responds to the cd...being an old fart with some young tastes I have a nice spread from about '65 to present (most of the present ones are the wifes). Because I use my 5 disc changer they flip flop around so I can compare different genres or eras at random.

I have found that a lot the music that is "bigger" is also using frequency ranges I wouldn't think of...where with some older stuff has very obvious shelves at the typical ranges of human hearing, some newer stuff is perceived as much louder, when some of it isn't as a result and it's obvious that some of the "unheard" frequencies still have an impact on audible frequencies.

AA has a spectrum analyzer that will freeze 4 parts, so I can save one and compare it to others...I just started this a couple weeks ago, it just occured to me...but it has been enlightening

1. We're talking about bass guitar, not an entire mix.

2. The presence of certain frequencies in a mix that you like doesn't necessarily imply that you like that mix because those frequencies are present...

1. true and a fair point

2. I said bigger... However it is an iteresting point and I think you might be missing it...it's not exactly the presence of frequencies, but the lack of squashing frequencies that makes the difference...

[Watto]

(also, since this thread seems the right place to ask, are there any good freeware bass cab/amp sims out there, i dont have a DI box and at the mo my bass sounds v.weak)

WoJ

I REALLY like the Fretted Synth series, especially Helian 1st Bass - http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1933.html

[Kingston]

Hey kilroy,

any more informatin about your "bassturd"? This thing really sparked my interest.

[Jason Brian Merrill]

Any chance of mp3 192kbs ?
Wav is heavy for dial up.


Thanks

Wait until you've sold a few hundred copies of your AmpSim! You'll be able to afford serious broadband then!

he'll have to change the title of his thread at least a few hundred more times before he gets that far im sure

[kilroy]

Wow...this thread totally slipped me mind.

Had myself locked away for a few days trying to make some headway on a so called "analog modeled" buss mastering compressor I have been toiling over off and on...between intense head scratching/hair pulling fits and such. I spent today and my entire weekend making yet more changes to the gain elements and transfer function algorithms for this compressor...so I'm right knackered about now.

Anyroad...

Hey kilroy,

any more informatin about your "bassturd"? This thing really sparked my interest.

Kingston...what will become of this, I have no idea. I usually start these kinds of projects because I fancy having a particular tool that is either not available, or not in a form I particularily care for. Well...that and the fact that I am basically a pathologically curious git. I am never really satisfied with the sound of a DI bass. The bass can be brilliant...the DI can be brilliant...you can even run the line through a good pre to the board...but hanged if it does not have the same excitement and immediacy of a proper miced up rig. The harmonic structure of the sound at the end of a real miced up chain is entirely different, and obviously far more non linear and coloured, but those peculiarities, to me anyroad, have usually always made for a bass track that was easier to mix, had more track penetration and drive, often required minimal, if indeed any, intervention with compressors/limiters and EQ, translated better on smaller/cheaper speakers.... Being that having a healthy supply of boutique bass rig hardware always on tap is absurdly expensive/impractical I set about to see if I could come up with a reasonably convincing substitute...and I guess what you hear is the somewhat unrefined results to date.

As you can see, opinions differ as to how well this emulation comes off in folk's ears. I certainly expected no less and I appreciate the fact that folks would even take the bother to offer an opinion of any kind. That is how I learn. I guess I can see some concerns over the sheer depth of the sound, but then this *is* intended to convincingly emulate the sound of a high quality amp/cab rig. Anyone who has ever stood in front of a 4X10 over 1X18 cab stack being driven off a good tube preamp/poweramp after being fed a hot active pickup signal from a great instrument knows how deep and compelling *that* sound can be. This is the sound I wanted to capture if possible. Indeed, one of the things I really wanted to get *was* that deep tight sound that has both the weight *and* the punch. As was pointed out, if the deep lows are not required, or would rather be handled by the kick drum, it is a simple and clean matter to high pass the signal, or carve a "hole". Far better to do this than to have to add some weight because the original sound was too anemic to start with. I personally do not like to EQ bass frequencies too much, if it can be avoided...carving away down there can have a tendancy to mush up the attack of your lows, especially if you are not using exceptionally phase free filters. With this emulation it was my hope that one could achieve a sound you could pretty much just do some simple hi-pass/low shelfing, shove the fader up and...wham...there's your sound sitting pretty.

Truth is, I would love to have all the hardware. Fact is, that will never happen. So...



To infinity....and beyond!

[Kingston]

Anyone who has ever stood in front of a 4X10 over 1X18 cab stack being driven off a good tube preamp/poweramp after being fed a hot active pickup signal from a great instrument knows how deep and compelling *that* sound can be.

At the thought of this, the sheer weight of it had me remember when the god of bass of the universal spoke to me: may the sub be with you.

I personally do not like to EQ bass frequencies too much, if it can be avoided...carving away down there can have a tendancy to mush up the attack of your lows, especially if you are not using exceptionally phase free filters. With this emulation it was my hope that one could achieve a sound you could pretty much just do some simple hi-pass/low shelfing, shove the fader up and...wham...there's your sound sitting pretty.

...my observations of bassturd in exactomundo speak. You hit the nail in the head and the quality of the timberwork shows.

Where's the 'purchase this item now' when you most desperately need it?

[Kingston]

I usually start these kinds of projects because I fancy having a particular tool that is either not available, or not in a form I particularily care for. Well...that and the fact that I am basically a pathologically curious git.

A pathologically curious git who's onto something, with hell of a hunch on things that are wrong. So hows about you start thinking about commercial endeavours with these things? You've got the reverb, this, and the looming bus compressor from the gods.

(this from another pathologically curious git who's got a few secret weapons up the sleeve just about to be commercialised)

[SebbyNC]

I've listened to the demo track. I'm bass player, with some experience (i.e., not a beginner). Quite frankly, I like the dry sounds better! It's probably a question of tatse, or maybe a qustion of amount of effect (that is too much IMO on the wet signal). I like the raw sound of the bass, it sounds more "high end" than the treated sound. Again, it's just my opinion.

[egbert]

I've listened to the demo track. I'm bass player, with some experience (i.e., not a beginner). Quite frankly, I like the dry sounds better! It's probably a question of tatse, or maybe a qustion of amount of effect (that is too much IMO on the wet signal). I like the raw sound of the bass, it sounds more "high end" than the treated sound. Again, it's just my opinion.

That was my reaction too - I liked the playing and the bass tone in the DI signal but the excessive bottom end in the processed signal was less appealing.

I can hear what you are going for though Kilroy and you have got it in spades with this model. I would like some parameters to adjust so I would have the option to back things off a little AND the ability to mix the DI and processed sound - with those features I think your would have a killer bass processor on your hands.