Question about samplers and sample library combination

[Failed Muso]

A few more questions since I'm about to pull the trigger on this sampler.

Like I said in my initial post, I'm looking for libraries that provide individual note samples of instruments at varying velocities, not pre-recorded phrases. What is the technical name for those types of libraries/samples? Multi-samples?

Yes, Multi-sampled libraries are what you are after.

Secondly, libraries that do provide pre-recorded phrases, do they generally provide the MIDI data for those phrases so that I can edit them in some way?

Depends on the library developer. If they don't, you can use Propellerheads Recycle to slice up the sample and then export it in the Akai .akp format along with a MIDI trigger file.

And I'm still a bit concerned about having only 512MB of RAM available. Most websites are not providing much information about RAM requirements, but I did see a few orchestral libraries recommending a minimum of 512MB. I'm hoping/guessing that's for more than one instrument. Generally speaking, how much RAM does a quality instrument/sample need? I would be looking to run at least a few instruments at a time. Would that be possible with just 512MB of RAM?

Don't worry. If a library has been developed for Akai samplers they will have been designed to fit into 512MB RAM. As Jupiter says, in a sampler, the memory is purely used for sample data, unlike a PC which has to share it's memory resources with everything else. Akai libraries are optimized and cleverly programmed to get the most out of a small memory footprint.

I can run big libraries in my S6000 with 256MB RAM without any problems, and I have loads of room in my Z8 which has 512MB RAM.

[BezO]

There is a huge difference between having 512 mB in your computer compared to having it in your sampler.

The sampler can use all of that for samples. A computer needs 512 mB just to run the OS and sequencer!!! A simplification but you get the point.

Ahh, I didn't think about that. I'm sure any requirements I see are considering a computer as well. That puts me at ease.

[BezO]

Yes, Multi-sampled libraries are what you are after.

Thanks.

I can run big libraries in my S6000 with 256MB RAM without any problems, and I have loads of room in my Z8 which has 512MB RAM.

If I wasn't stuck on 24 bit sampling, I would consider an S6000 now that you both point out the RAM use differences.

[Failed Muso]

If I wasn't stuck on 24 bit sampling, I would consider an S6000 now that you both point out the RAM use differences.

If I had to choose, I'd go for the S6000 EVERY time

[BezO]

If I had to choose, I'd go for the S6000 EVERY time

Why is that?

[Failed Muso]

If I had to choose, I'd go for the S6000 EVERY time

Why is that?

Better OS, easy to use BIG front panel, no discernable difference in sound quality, and so on. I have both and if you told me I had to get rid of one, the Z8 would be the one to go.

[BezO]

If I had to choose, I'd go for the S6000 EVERY time

Why is that?

Better OS, easy to use BIG front panel, no discernable difference in sound quality, and so on. I have both and if you told me I had to get rid of one, the Z8 would be the one to go.

Really?

Is there something wrong with the Z8's OS, or do you just like the S6000's better? Better yet, what are some of the major differences... those that make the S6000 better?

Even with 24bit sampling capability, you don't hear the difference in sound quality?

Is the max on RAM for the S6000 256MB?

[Failed Muso]

If I had to choose, I'd go for the S6000 EVERY time

Why is that?

Better OS, easy to use BIG front panel, no discernable difference in sound quality, and so on. I have both and if you told me I had to get rid of one, the Z8 would be the one to go.

Really?

Is there something wrong with the Z8's OS, or do you just like the S6000's better? Better yet, what are some of the major differences... those that make the S6000 better?

Even with 24bit sampling capability, you don't hear the difference in sound quality?

Is the max on RAM for the S6000 256MB?

There's nothing wrong with the Z8 OS but in their infinite wisdom, Akai only gave the Z series a very small screen, so navigating the pages is a pain. The Z Series does have the Q Link knobs which the S6000 doesn't and they are very handy if you like tweaking your sounds in a live performance.

The S6000 is just more intuitive to use. It's large LCD and panel make it really easy to access all parameters quickly. Everything is just obvious. Don't get me wrong, the Z Series are great samplers and feature some of the best hardware components you are ever likely to find in a hardware sampler, but the S6000 is just my favourite The S6000 is also more sturdily built. It's like a tank. The Z8 has build compromises. It uses cheaper plastics on the front panels and the buttons feel less solid too. You'll find more S6000's in live rigs than you will Z's. Heck, Robbie Williams uses 3 on stage himself !

Both samplers become dead easy to use when paired up with ak.sys software anyway.

As for the sound quality, I don't want to get into the 16 v 24 bit debate, but the S6000 may only be 16 bit, but it's probably the best 16 bit you can get. Yes, the Z8 has 24/96 but in sampling it's not really necessary. In digital recording, however, 24 bit does help greatly, but unless you're playing an instrument back in complete isolation, 24bit sampling can often be perceived as unecessary and also consumes a lot more space.

Max RAM on the S5/6000's is 256MB, yes. 512 on the Z's.

[BezO]

Both samplers become dead easy to use when paired up with ak.sys software anyway.

As for the sound quality, I don't want to get into the 16 v 24 bit debate, but the S6000 may only be 16 bit, but it's probably the best 16 bit you can get. Yes, the Z8 has 24/96 but in sampling it's not really necessary. In digital recording, however, 24 bit does help greatly, but unless you're playing an instrument back in complete isolation, 24bit sampling can often be perceived as unecessary and also consumes a lot more space.

I do plan to use ak.sys software either way. Mine will be racked, and is strictly for stuido recordings. The primary reason I am looking for a sampler is to load it with mulit-sample libraries and replace my sound modules. The multi-purposed synths are not providing the level of near realism I need.

I'm not a performer, at least not at this point. I'm a writer and producer. I play guitar and bass, and a little keys, and need something to record the instruments I don't play (minus drums)... brass, woodwinds, strings, percussion, ect. Aside from my guitar, I haven't soloed any instruments in a song, probably because I didn't have the confidence in the sounds. It would be nice to solo a trumpet or something in an intro or bridge.

Hard drive space and RAM is also a concern. I am trying to replace my sound modules, so I'm going to need as many libraries as I can get my hands on, and load/use as many instruments as possible, at once. The Z4/8s providing the largest hard drive and most RAM available at present is a big factor.

I have a friend of a friend that uses an S5000. I've seen and heard some great music created with it. But I don't know anyone with a Z4/8. I'm going on specs and reviews, which is why it's taking me so long to pull the trigger on something.

Considering the above, if you were me, would the S6000 still be your first choice?

[BezO]

[The S6000 is just more intuitive to use. It's large LCD and panel make it really easy to access all parameters quickly. Everything is just obvious.

...but the S6000 is just my favourite The S6000 is also more sturdily built. It's like a tank.

...but the S6000 may only be 16 bit, but it's probably the best 16 bit you can get.

...Max RAM on the S5/6000's is 256MB, yes. 512 on the Z's.

A few more questions.

What type of drive options would I have with the S6000? 50GB?

Have you used the S6000 the way I want to use a sampler... storing and streaming multi-samples? Either way, could you give me an example of what type of performance i could expect in terms of # of instruments I could trigger at once? And those instruments would be horns, strings, pianos, ect. No drums.

[BezO]

[The S6000 is just more intuitive to use. It's large LCD and panel make it really easy to access all parameters quickly. Everything is just obvious.

...but the S6000 is just my favourite The S6000 is also more sturdily built. It's like a tank.

...but the S6000 may only be 16 bit, but it's probably the best 16 bit you can get.

...Max RAM on the S5/6000's is 256MB, yes. 512 on the Z's.

A few more questions.

What type of drive options would I have with the S6000? 50GB?

Have you used the S6000 the way I want to use a sampler... storing and streaming multi-samples? Either way, could you give me an example of what type of performance i could expect in terms of # of instruments I could trigger at once? And those instruments would be horns, strings, pianos, ect. No drums.

Lovesign? Anyone?

I have very limited experience with samplers. I've used them to program drums and such, but tha's it. So I'm relying heavily on knowledgable folks in dedicated forums like this to help guide my decision. I'm looking for definitive and specific examples of what the Z4/8 and S5/6000 are capable of.

Most of my tunes are arranged to sound like a 5-10 piece funk or jazz band. I use BFD for drums, and play guitar and bass. I'll need the sampler to deliver a few horns, 1 or 2 keyboards, percussion, a pad/strings and maybe bass if I want a sound I can't get out of my 4-string, all simultaneously. Is this something that either sampler could handle? If so, can they do it with quality multi-sample libraries?

[Jeremy_NSL]

Ok, maybe I missed something here... But is there a specific reason why you aren't considering software synth/samplers? Lovesign loves his Akais, but honestly you can get quite a bit done with a software sampler for alot less money... Especially if live performance isn't a huge requirement.

I'd personally look at NI Kontakt 2. Or for an even cheaper, really good all-in-one solution, Hypersonic 2. Or finally, on a tight budget you can look at NI Kompakt.

All of these come with most of the sounds you need - unlike a hardware sampler where you will probably need to buy at least a few sample cds to get started.

Just my thoughts - good luck!

[Failed Muso]

The key here, BezO, is the libraries. You could go out and buy a bloatware multisampled string library with no loops, long sustain tails, recorded at 24bit/96KHz, way too many velocities than is necessary and max your memory out in one instrument ! Quality libraries designed for Akai's will always contain highly efficient programming that will take up the minimum memory footprint but maximise the quality of the sound.

Todays sample playback programs like Kontakt, HALion, etc have libraries developed for them that really don't care about space restrictions because the £ per GB is so low nowadays in terms of HD's and RAM that they can afford to be lazy and not bother looping and just recording one shot samples with incredibly long sustain tails. They also tend to go for 24/96 recording standards for no other reason than being able to claim an alleged superior qulaity or because everyone else is doing it and it's a case of "me too".

For what you want to do, an S5/6000 with 256MB of RAM will be fine, as will a Z4/8 with it's maximum of 512MB. The main reason for the Z's increased capacity is to deal with the extra memory required for the 24/96 stuff it can handle. I would also recommend you get an internal HD fitted to the sampler. Again, drives are cheap, so no major expense and many used samplers will probably come with one already fitted. This will give you speedy load times and negate any reliance on a PC during a live setup.

It's difficult for you I guess, because if you are interested in going down the hardware route, it's not as if you can go in to your local music store and try one out. Then you have the added peer pressure of the software brigade I have Kontakt 2 (for dev reasons) and I'm sorry to say it isn't a patch on either of my Akai's. Jeremy_NSL says I'm in love with them, and yes, I am, but only because they do the job so damned well. I'm currently developing library with two colleagues for one of the largest keyboard manufacturers in the world for their new workstation keyboard and all 3 of us use Akai's (2x S5000 and 1x S6000) for the sampling duties, converting them into the native format for the workstation when they are ready. I always end up using this fact to justify their power and reliability and I'll do it again now. Robbie Williams (household name to anyone out side the US. For US citizens who aren't aware of him, I guess he is as big as any major US artist of the last 20 years, if not bigger) uses 3 S6000's in his live rig. One is a back up, the other two (both with 256MB RAM each and internal HD's) are controlled by the drummer and provide large portions of the backing tracks. Now Robbie plays gigs to 120,000 people at a time. Would you put your trust in Kontakt (or any software sampler and PC for that matter) in front of 120,000 fans who had each paid up to £100 a ticket ? And his shows last up to 3 hours. So that should give you a fair idea of the capacity and reliability of these things. And he's not the only artist using Akai's in this way.

I really think your concerns come from reading about 50GB string libraries for Kontakt and you have perceived that the quality and flexibility is there because it's so large (and so expensive). It's only 50GB because the programmer/producer has recorded the samples at a sample rate that, once embedded in a mix, is totally unnecessary and has been lazy and not bothered using efficient sustain loops and other memory saving techniques. Think of it this way....You can have a big American V12 car that achieves 175mph or a highly efficient Japanese car, 2 Litre turbo that can do the same because of the efficiency of design. For example a Dodge Viper ACR, V10 8 Litre hits around 175mph which is the same speed a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VIII gets from 2 litre Straight 4 cylinder Turbo.

Cost wise, Kontakt 2 plus a few quality libraries soon mounts up. A used S6000 with some Akai libraries will probably work out much cheaper.

Here are some screen shots of my Akai's after I have loaded 630 samples (Stereo and Mono), 105 Programs & 60 Multi's. That's only using 35% of RAM !!



And here is a jazzy Demo I dug up...(this uses a fraction of what is stored in memory..about 10 programs to be precise. It's cheesy but it will suffice )

http://akaisamples.advanceblue.net/samples/akai.mp3

Hope that gives you some idea

[Spaceman Sounds]

I still think The Emu samplers kick Akai's arse when it comes to sample playback quality. I allways found the Akai's (especially the newer ones) interpolation lacking compared to the EIVand E64.

Even the S1000 sounded better transposing a sample up an octave than the newer Akai's. Maybe the newer samplers traded interpolation quality for polyphony. A sampler really can put it's own sound on a sample. Akai's were known for having a colder sound than the emu's. I love the way I can drag a looped saw tooth up many octaves before I hear aliasing on Emu.

The best sampler I have has to be the EIII when it works. Analog and digital I put a drum loop in it, and it comes out soooo much nicer... not sure why.

Oh and stay clear of the Emu X Creative killed Emu with that. What a pile of usless rubbish, can't believe I sold my E-64 to pay for that.

[Spaceman Sounds]

I also think that it would be best to get a vsti based sampler, the new vsti gigasampler looks good and the libraries for them are awsome. I don't agree with the notion that many layered samples are not needed. With orchestrel type samples they are very much needed or Mr Hans Zimmer would still be using a rack of hardware samplers:)

I would even say that 24 bit is veery important with orchestrel sounds due to the low volume with which they can be played. If it was a pop song then yes 16 bit is fine, hell 12 bit probably wouldn't be noticed, but if you want sonic realism of any orchestral parts and not to sound like a general midi module then the big libraries with the big samples are the way to go.

And the all important fact of midi timing issues. Hardware samplers are great up to about 8 notes of polyphony, then they start to get sloppy, 64 notes of polyphony from a hardware sampler is not a road I'd like to go down for tight sequencing. Vsti's however are sample accurate (except the Emu x lol)