Question about samplers and sample library combination

[ozinexile]

I'm sorry if I'm out of line here but am wondering whether BezO is truly understanding how a hardware sampler like the Akai works.

Yes you can load multi-sampled instruments into say the Z4, but it won't stream it from the HD, it has to solely reside in the 512 Mb memory. That sounds restrictive compared to all the new libraries being produced for software samplers, but as Lovesign has pointed out, they are constructed differently. Think of the main Akai sample format, S1000/3000, and each sound will generally only be 32 Mb max, since that was the maximum memory at the time. I know S5000/6000 format offers more.

If you are seeing sample libraries that are showing recommended computer specs, I doubt they will work in the Akai, without constructing your own multisampled instruments from the .wav files supplied. If you want to just buy some sounds, load them up and play, you must be looking for Akai format sample libraries. There are still plenty of libraries out there, but fewer titles are being released.

Anyway I still think the hardware sampler has much to offer and I always liked the sound quality from the Yamaha A4000/5000

[BezO]

Ok, maybe I missed something here... But is there a specific reason why you aren't considering software synth/samplers?

I'm on a G4 w/2GB of RAM. I run BFD for drums, a very CPU intensive program. Between that and Pro Tools, I can't ask my CPU to do much more.

[Jeremy_NSL]

Have you considered Reason? You can connect it to Pro-Tools over Rewire and its cpu usage is almost nothing. It comes with a pretty wide-ranging library of sounds - and you can always add more with Refills.
With Reason you could probably add 8-16 relatively simple tracks without using any significant cpu at all.

Then again, maybe you'd be happy with hardware too... But for me, I've really regretted most hardware purchases I've made. They are just so damn hard to integrate into your workflow - no total recall, sysex for patch uploads, limited ability to add vst fx, having to realtime bounce everything, slow sample-loading times - I could keep going.

Reason has a great sampler inside called NN-XT. Maybe check out the demo if you have a moment.

[BezO]

For what you want to do, an S5/6000 with 256MB of RAM will be fine, as will a Z4/8 with it's maximum of 512MB. The main reason for the Z's increased capacity is to deal with the extra memory required for the 24/96 stuff it can handle. I would also recommend you get an internal HD fitted to the sampler. Again, drives are cheap, so no major expense and many used samplers will probably come with one already fitted. This will give you speedy load times and negate any reliance on a PC during a live setup.

Most of the Z4/8s I come across are fitted with at least a 60GB drive. And I've seen 50GB drives that are supposed to be compatible with the S5/6000s that I would definitely get if I went that route. I'm not looking to ask my CPU to do anything else, so a nice size internal drive for my sampler is a must.

It's difficult for you I guess, because if you are interested in going down the hardware route, it's not as if you can go in to your local music store and try one out.

Exactly. And I only no one person that uses a S5000(none that use the Z8/4), but he doesn't use it the way I'm looking to use it. He's more into chopping and arranging samples.

I really think your concerns come from reading about 50GB string libraries for Kontakt and you have perceived that the quality and flexibility is there because it's so large (and so expensive).

My concerns come from a lack of knowledge and information. If I could read some reviews on a library, see that everyone thinks it's great, and then go to a website and see the specs, I would be more comfortable. But the websites I'm going to are not providing much info in terms of sample sizes and RAM requirements.

Here are some screen shots of my Akai's after I have loaded 630 samples (Stereo and Mono), 105 Programs & 60 Multi's. That's only using 35% of RAM !!

And here is a jazzy Demo I dug up...(this uses a fraction of what is stored in memory..about 10 programs to be precise. It's cheesy but it will suffice )

Hope that gives you some idea

Thanks for the examples.

I could use some help with the terminology. Programs? Multis?

And did you use multi-samples for that tune and play the phrases via MIDI, or are those prepared/chopped phrases?

Thanks for the explainations. Very helpful!

[BezO]

I still think The Emu samplers kick Akai's arse when it comes to sample playback quality. I allways found the Akai's (especially the newer ones) interpolation lacking compared to the EIVand E64.

Even the S1000 sounded better transposing a sample up an octave than the newer Akai's...

I don't think that would apply for me. I'd be looking for multi-sampled libraries that supplied the full range of notes of a particular instrument.

Would you say the same about Emu/Akai with regards to those types of libraries?

[BezO]

I also think that it would be best to get a vsti based sampler

Software is not an option for me.

I would even say that 24 bit is veery important with orchestrel sounds due to the low volume with which they can be played. If it was a pop song then yes 16 bit is fine, hell 12 bit probably wouldn't be noticed, but if you want sonic realism of any orchestral parts and not to sound like a general midi module then the big libraries with the big samples are the way to go.

I run all my Pro Tools sessions at 24 bits and definitely hear a difference from when I was running 16 bit sessions. I've never heard any improvements using anything above 44.1 sample rate, so I stick with that.

And the all important fact of midi timing issues. Hardware samplers are great up to about 8 notes of polyphony, then they start to get sloppy, 64 notes of polyphony from a hardware sampler is not a road I'd like to go down for tight sequencing.

Are you referring to a sampler's sequencer or triggering the sampler with an external sequencer? I'd be relying solely on my Pro Tools sequencer.

[BezO]

Yes you can load multi-sampled instruments into say the Z4, but it won't stream it from the HD, it has to solely reside in the 512 Mb memory.

That is one thing I do understand and is why I'm concerned and asking so many questions.

If you are seeing sample libraries that are showing recommended computer specs, I doubt they will work in the Akai, without constructing your own multisampled instruments from the .wav files supplied. If you want to just buy some sounds, load them up and play, you must be looking for Akai format sample libraries. There are still plenty of libraries out there, but fewer titles are being released.

I understand. But the Akai compatible library's websites don't seem to provide specs. I doubt they would make a library for Akai if Akai couldn't handle them, but since I'll want to trigger 5 or more instruments at once, I want to make sure a sampler can handle that.

[jupiter8]

Spaceman Sounds wrote:
And the all important fact of midi timing issues. Hardware samplers are great up to about 8 notes of polyphony, then they start to get sloppy, 64 notes of polyphony from a hardware sampler is not a road I'd like to go down for tight sequencing.
Are you referring to a sampler's sequencer or triggering the sampler with an external sequencer? I'd be relying solely on my Pro Tools sequencer.

MIDI is a serial interface as in it sends the MIDI messages one at a time. So if you want 64 notes at exactly the same time there is going to be delays. How much,i don't know right now.
But there are ways around it. You can have the really important stuff (like drums) exactly on the beat and sounds with slower attacks (strings?) slightly spread out.
Don't know how big this problem is in real life but it could be noticable.

[ozinexile]

Yes you can load multi-sampled instruments into say the Z4, but it won't stream it from the HD, it has to solely reside in the 512 Mb memory.

That is one thing I do understand and is why I'm concerned and asking so many questions.

That's cool, I guess you next step requires a bit of research via the net. Go to www.soundsonline.com or www.timespace.com or any of the other online sample distributers. You should be able to search by format type. Select Akai and then go through the results. These sites should have online audio demos. They might also state the total size of the library, remember if you selected Akai S1000 format no single instrument should be bigger than 32 Mb.

Right, times & space also show links to the developers website where you should be able to get more info or submit online for further info. Now these sites also like to quote favourable reviews and often have links, if not soundonsound and keyboard mag both have reviews archived online (well, back to certain point anyway). Hopefully this will offer the info needed.

I wouldn't stress too much about whether 512 Mb ram is enough, if your buying sounds designed for hardware samplers, you'll always have enough to get a full backing track going at very good quality. I still use 32 Mb programs from Pure Guitars and Pure Drums CDs from Yellow Tools, because they sound good.

[Failed Muso]

I could use some help with the terminology. Programs? Multis?

And did you use multi-samples for that tune and play the phrases via MIDI, or are those prepared/chopped phrases?

Thanks for the explainations. Very helpful!

Programs are collections of samples, arranged and mapped to form an instrument. For example, I have 5 samples of a synth playing the same patch but at different octaves, let's say G. We'll call the sample "Synth". So I have Synth G1, Synth G2, Synth G3, Synth G4 & Synth G5. I map these out across the keyboard, placing the samples on the corresponding key and then stretching each sample up & down by 5 or 6 semitones, so that the entire keyboard range is covered and there is no overlapping of samples. I save this and this is what we know as a Program.

Now, we do this for our full compliment of instruments, so now we have, let's say, 10 Programs, each one a different instrument. I now go into Multi mode and assign each program to a MIDI channel. I can also add global FX and set individual instrument panning and levels here too, amongst other things. So now, I have a Multi called "Song 1" which contains all the programs needed for all the instruments. Once this is saved, I can recall it instantly and the sampler will load up all the relevant samples, programs and settings for me.

I can now, should I wish, create a SET LIST of all my Multi's for my set, along with the corresponding MIDI trigger files (the AKAI's have their own onboard SMF MIDI File Player built in) and I'm sorted for my gig

Apart from the vocal runs, everything in that demo was a sample played back as an instrument, as opposed to loops or phrases, all triggered by a MIDI file playing directly from the S6000.

As some have already stated, the most popular Akai format is the S1000/S3000 format. There are a few specific S5/6000/Z Series format discs out there, but not many. Now, the S3000 could only have 32MB installed, so all libraries created for that were highly optimized. I know the guy who dev'd most of Akai's own library and still work with him today. What he can squeeze out of a 500k sample is unreal !! So, let's imagine you have 15 instruments loaded at a max of 32MB each, that's only 480 MB ! Now, not many use the full 32MB so you should easily get a full compliment of Programs into 256 and easily into 512MB. Trust me, if you buy an S6000 with 50GB HD and 256MB RAM, you would struggle to max it out with the commercially available S1000/S3000 libraries out there. I only have a 20GB HD in mine and I bought that about 5 years ago. I've only recently filled half of it up !! You should factor in an external SCSI CD-ROM to load these libraries up as well.

Remember that AKAI were industry standard and pretty much set the rules on sampling. E-MU spent most of their time playing catch up. There was always two groups, one who favoured Akai's, the other E-MU's. The E-MU's filters were pretty good, but I've heard that E-MU were always trying to keep up with Akai, and that comes from E-MU staff themselves. Either way, they're both great and can both read each other's formats natively, More so the later Akai's. What I'm trying to say is that many people use them for way more than what you want to do and do so without any problems. You're going to have to take a leap of faith

Pop along to my forum (Actually, I see you already did !) and sign up the the Akai Mailing List too (do a Google for it). 2 great resources for Akai users and decades of experience and help all for free

[Failed Muso]

And the all important fact of midi timing issues. Hardware samplers are great up to about 8 notes of polyphony, then they start to get sloppy, 64 notes of polyphony from a hardware sampler is not a road I'd like to go down for tight sequencing. Vsti's however are sample accurate (except the Emu x lol)

PMSL !! You obviously haven't used a modern hardware sampler recently ! Why would Akai make an S6000 128 note polyphonic if it struggled beyond 8 ???

True, the laws of physics dictate that there will be MIDI delay, but it is so small and unnoticable that you would have to be comletely anal to claim to hear a difference on something like an S5/6000 or Z Series or any other hardware sampler built at the turn of the century.

VSTi's suffer from delays themselves in the form of audio latency and other things, so nothing is perfect, but if it is imperceivable, why worry, unless you can't find anything better to use your oscilloscope on

[BezO]

If you want to just buy some sounds, load them up and play, you must be looking for Akai format sample libraries. There are still plenty of libraries out there, but fewer titles are being released.

I am a bit worried about that as well.

[hollowsun]

I still think The Emu samplers kick Akai's arse when it comes to sample playback quality. I allways found the Akai's (especially the newer ones) interpolation lacking compared to the EIVand E64.

That is true of the S2/3/XL and derivatives which used very simple linear interpolation (as do most s/w samplers) but the S5/6000 and Z-series (and MPC4000) use an extremely high quality interpolation algorithm that is arguably better than even the Emus!

Even the S1000 sounded better transposing a sample up an octave than the newer Akai's.

Because it used a high quality interpolation algorithm.

Maybe the newer samplers traded interpolation quality for polyphony.

Yes and no - for cost reasons mostly to get the S2/3/XL out at affordable prices (the S2000 was the world's first sub-£1,000 sampler and is the best selling sampler.... ever.... having outsold the S900 and S1000.... and many are still in daily use today).

Akai's were known for having a colder sound than the emu's.

A myth usually spread around by Emu users Others think it sounds 'cleaner' and more accurate - what goes in is what comes out (although, atmittedly, the bass end on the S1000 was a tad 'light')!

The best sampler I have has to be the EIII when it works. Analog and digital I put a drum loop in it, and it comes out soooo much nicer... not sure why.

One could argue 'bad design'?!! I stayed away from Emu samplers precisely because they colour the sound - if I want the sound quality to be changed, I'd rather do it myself than have it forced upon me!!

Steve

[Spaceman Sounds]

Midi timing is sloppy on any hardware sampler simply due to the fact of the midi serial design. Lovesign, I know this for a fact and have done many tests. I released over 40 commercial records using midi and samplers as my main source.

To say that Emu were allways playing catch up is a bit odd really, Emu were making samplers waaaaaaaay before Akai. And Emu's filter are awsome compared to anything up until the Z3 which I haven't had the chance to use.

All the Drum and Bass boys use the Emu filters because nothing else quite messes up a sound in such a unique way.

Working with drum loops from a sampler was a nightmare, even on a rock solid midi machine like the old Atari 1040 running Creator, (which still hold's better jitter figures than modern pc's). You just couldn't have 2 or more drumloops triggered on top of each other due to midi jitter and the queing system.

Yes vsti's have latency on monitoring recording in i.e your soundcard but playback IS sample accurate. Try layering 32 stereo drumloops on you Akai launched on the first beat of the bar and see if you don't get flamming and phasing and inconsistent timing.

I stay away from strecthing samples across a key range these days, but in the days before of 16mb in a sampler (or 4mb in the EIII) you had to strech and I just never liked the newer Akais, they aliased a lot.

All good samplers hardware or vsti will convert Akai cd's, but I really think to keep up with the the pack and mix in the box it would be better to use a software sampler and the newer bigger streaming libraries. It's so much easier adding eq, compression, fx to 32 audio channels from a software sampler than having to get a big mixing desk, lots of fx, hardware compressors etc..... and a lot of patching and wiring up.

Don't get me wrong, I love my emu, but I use Kontakt 2 these days for it's ease of use.

I just wish sample dev's would add a high quality interpolation for exporting on it

[Spaceman Sounds]

Lovesign..... Emu complained and said I was being anal about a 6 ms jitter in their sample (supposedly) accurate vsti sampler. all the guys that crossed over from hardware to software samplers noted how much tighter their drums were.

And yes I can notice the midi timing problems on any sampler when it comes to drums and tight percussion and seq sounds. Maybe if you write Jazz on your sampler then 128 note polyphony and drunk timing is cool. But when you're doing electronic/dance music it has to be spot on.

By the way 6ms Jitter is a hell of a lot of jitter, 2ms is still totally unacceptable by my standards. I just can't stand drums flamming all over the place.

Actually do this test with just 2 notes on your Akai Z3. Take a drum loop mono. Split it into left and right assign one to C1 and the other to D1..... note not both on C1 as that's cheating Trigger the 1 bar loop every 1 bar with both C1 and D1 and see how they flange and phase as each bar gets re triggered. That's just 2 note's so imagine it get's worse every extra note of polyphony. Now try the same with kontakt 2.

In fact to make it easier, reverse the phase of one of the samples. It should come out as pure silence if the Akai is doing it's job.