The I Love Logic thread

[VicDiesel]

Regarding Logic error messages, there's been an alltime favourite of mine:
"Circular structure detected. Please tell Emagic how you did that - OK".
No, I'm not kidding...

Programmer's humour.

Honeywell's customer service department once got a very concerned
message from a confused customer whose MULTICS system had printed:

Hodie natus est radici frater

before giving up the (holy?) ghost. ``Today unto the root is born a
brother''.

This is a hack on ``Hodie natus est filius nobis'', or ``Today unto us
is born a son''. I don't know the reference exactly, but it's in
Handel's Messiah.

It seems a Multics hacker (allegedly Bernie Greenberg) at MIT had
inserted the liturgical allusion when it detected the ``impossible
event'' of the filesystem deciding it had two roots.

V.

[superddman]

talking about this great prefromance of logic, does the same apply to the latest PC version? or is it only the mac versions?

[OMU]

It applies to PC version as well

[Sascha Franck]

It applies to PC version as well

Yeah, defenitely.

There's 3 things that add up for Logic to still have the most efficient audio engine of all PC sequencers:
1) Apparently it's coded well, so general performance is just nice.
2) CPU useage almost doesn't go up under low latencies. Under SX for instance, anything lower than, say, 512 samples buffersize, will more or less drastically raise CPU useage.
3) The aforementioned dynamic plugin handling. Things not in use won't tax your CPU. Just recently other sequencer companies started adding this immensely useful feature (i.e. Samplitude).

Now, it starts to show its age nonetheless under Windows.
- No more than 1GB of RAM is supported. Add more and you'll run into troubles. There's some sort of workarounds, but usually they won't exactly work.
- Double CPU support isn't exactly there. Again, there's a workaround, in setting audio and VSTi tracks to "live" mode, by adding an I/O plugin. Those tracks will then be handled by the second CPU.
- Quite some VST plugins won't work natively (not working at all, note hangers, no MIDI in/out support, stealing key commands, etc.). There's a workaround for most of those problems though: Use Energy XT as a sub-host.
- Audio handling is quite dated.
- Handling of multi-timbral VSTis is awkward.

After all, for me it's still the most efficient host to get some work done, especially when it comes to anything MIDI related.

[christianmusicmaker]

I have had on more than one occassion this message... "is that the correct time...you have not used Logic for a long time" or something along those lines. Seriously. Very strange. Maybe something to do with using a 2003 USB key in a new 2005 PC or something. Head scratcher for sure.

This is to do with the XSkey and copy protection methods. The XSkey is apparently quite sophisticated and actually stores a log of recent activity in it. If you try to do (for example) repeated hack attempts and kill your key, sending it back to Emagic would let them see what you had been doing with to it.

One of the things it does is do some checking on times/dates, compared to what it sees as "normal" behaviour. Any "strange" time/date activity is flagged as suspicious (for example, if a user is resetting the time/date on their computer backwards to extend trial demo periods and so on). One of the criteria is if it hasn't been used for sometime, or your computer clock is reset. Obviously, there are legitimate reasons for this sometimes, hence Logic asking you to verify that the time/date is correct on your computer in case it's been inadverftently changed, which can happen occasionally.

Ah...that would be the cause then. I had not used it for a good deal of time. Cheers beej.

[rockyrolf]

I don't like logic at all - sorry - too complicated - too unstable - plus I hate reading manuals before unsing a piece of software - protools and nuendo are a lot more straight forward

[beej]

With great power comes great responsibility...

[zOap]

I've used Logic for years, alongside both Protools, Nuendo, and others. It has some very powerful features, but is IMO to bloated.

Tracktion, POWER!

[Sascha Franck]

I really don't think Logic is anymore complicated than, say, Cubase or Nuendo. More to the opposite, actually.

The *very* first steps might take you an occasional hour longer, but right after that almost everything (apart from certain audio features that aren't implemented as well) is accomplished faster and more efficiently (I could list a ton of things...).

Regarding stability, under Windows it's been the most stable host I ever used. And that includes quite some...
Sure, there's some plugin incompatibility, but that's about it.
Just recently I recorded, mixed and monitored a live gig. 15 tracks at 24bit, 3 monitors, 5 bus effects, a compressor and an EQ on each track.
Used a Hammerfall DSP (via PCMCIA card) and my 1.86GHz Pentium M laptop. Buffersize has been 64 samples.
Not a hint of a problem at all.
I wouldn't trust any other sequencer to manage such a thing.

[magog]

Logic was my first real experience with a music app, and so I think I had somewhat unrealistic expectations that it would have a sensible GUI. I expected that it would behave like normal software. This was before I realized that pretty well all music app GUIs were destined to suck.

I always hear it said that people who have trouble using Logic "just have trouble with the environment". I didn't care about the environment. I just wanted to do ordinary, sensible things in the arrange window without constantly fighting a user interface designed by trolls.

My pet-peeves with Logic versions 4.0 to 5.5 as I remember them:

• no right-click menu. In fact, I think right-clicking switched to the pencil tool and created an empty part in the arange window.
• The parameter boxes were full of invisible little parameter "hot-spots" that responded to mouse actions in a variety of mysterious ways like click-and-hold (which I'd never heard of before)
• To move a part you'd drag it. To resize it, you'd drag one of its edges. The problem was that for small parts, you couldn't tell in advance what action Logic would take: the mouse cursor wouldn't change to the move or resize icon until after you'd already pressed the mouse button.
• Presing ESC didn't cancel things
• Some OK buttons said "Do it!"
• Some dialogs couldn't be cancelled with ESC
• Some dialogs couldn't be cancelled at all(!)
• Non-standard widgets everywhere, like pull-down menus in the environment which contained help text(!)

Now of course I'm older and wiser and I know that it is proper and right for every music app and plugin to avoid 10 years of UI evolution/convergence and instead develop its own UI, preferably re-inventing perfectly sensible standard OS controls like scrolling lists and file browser dialogs. So now in retrospect my early complaints about Logic seem somewhat quaint.

But even today when I go to my friend's house and play with Logic on his Mac and accidentally try to right click or something, I always end up saying "uh, okay, you can drive".

But to be fair, I haven't felt as productive in any other host since Logic. If Emagic/Apple hadn't ditched Windows, I'd still be using it. Although Cubase SX 3.2 is finally starting to get close. All I need is a key command to duplicate a track...

Michael

[Sascha Franck]

[*] no right-click menu. In fact, I think right-clicking switched to the pencil tool and created an empty part in the arange window.

Right-clicking can bring up *any* tool under Windows (I think by now this is possible on Macs as well, before it's been the option key).
IMO one of *the* most brilliant features of Logic.
I allways have two tools at my disposal instantly.
On my left mousbutton I keep the plain pointer, while on the right it's the following: Scissor (in the arrange), velocity tool (in the matrix editor), crosshair tool (in hyperedit).

[*] The parameter boxes were full of invisible little parameter "hot-spots" that responded to mouse actions in a variety of mysterious ways like click-and-hold (which I'd never heard of before)

As usual, it takes a bit getting used to that. But I somewhat agree, the behaviour could be more like what we know from the used OS routines.

[*] To move a part you'd drag it. To resize it, you'd drag one of its edges. The problem was that for small parts, you couldn't tell in advance what action Logic would take: the mouse cursor wouldn't change to the move or resize icon until after you'd already pressed the mouse button.

I agree, this is really bad.

But then, on the other hand you get that brilliant zooming feature by drawing around an area in the arrange (or other editors) while holding down ALT. To get back to the previous level you just ALT-click in the background (on Mac it's CTRL I think).

[*] Presing ESC didn't cancel things

Might be weird. But then, the ESC key is nicely exposed and brings up the toolbox. I allways liked that.

[*] Some OK buttons said "Do it!"
[*] Some dialogs couldn't be cancelled with ESC
[*] Some dialogs couldn't be cancelled at all(!)

Yeah, some dialogs are weird indeed.

[*] Non-standard widgets everywhere, like pull-down menus in the environment which contained help text(!)

Oh yeah, most of the environment is indeed looking like a badly designed DOS program or so.
I think it changed a bit with Logic 7, but those pulldowns are indeed looking shite.

Although Cubase SX 3.2 is finally starting to get close. All I need is a key command to duplicate a track...

I'm almost sure there's one in the keycommands section.
But hey, I thought you'd love rightclicking a lot... you can duplicate a track by rightclicking.

[beej]

[*] no right-click menu. In fact, I think right-clicking switched to the pencil tool and created an empty part in the arange window.

Well, you could always assign a second tool to the right mouse button, or have Cubase behaviour where right clicking opens a toolbox at the mouse cursor. Personally I find the dual assignable tools (you can actually have three on the Mac) to be a lifesaver when doing things like comping vocals - having the normal selection tool, scissors or marquee tool and mute tool under my mouse hand lets me cut up and comp multiple vocal tracks on the fly quicker than anything else...

Now of course I'm older and wiser and I know that it is proper and right for every music app and plugin to avoid 10 years of UI evolution/convergence and instead develop its own UI, preferably re-inventing perfectly sensible standard OS controls like scrolling lists and file browser dialogs. So now in retrospect my early complaints about Logic seem somewhat quaint.

Don't forget that much of the fundamental Logic UI elements were developed *before* that 10 year UI convergence. Logic 1.2 was on, what Mac System 7? The Mac OS (in fact most OS's) was a bit of a mess back then. And when you have a large app with a large professional userbase, there's a lot of inertia that resists changing fundamental things even if they could be better, because everyone will complain again.

Mind you, "DAW Complainer" seems to be a profession of its own in the internet these days...

[beej]

[*] To move a part you'd drag it. To resize it, you'd drag one of its edges. The problem was that for small parts, you couldn't tell in advance what action Logic would take: the mouse cursor wouldn't change to the move or resize icon until after you'd already pressed the mouse button.

I agree, this is really bad.

This has changed in current Logic (Mac) versions - when you mose over the various parts of a region, the pointer changes shape to indicate what would happen with a drag. In fact, the UI is slowly getting tidied up to become more in line with "standards". But then standards don't always have the best solutions. The interface to Apple's Shake is an example - completely different to anything else Apple - but super quick and efficient for what it does...

[magog]

right-clicking can bring up *any* tool under Windows (I think by now this is possible on Macs as well, before it's been the option key). IMO one of *the* most brilliant features of Logic.

Well, you could always assign a second tool to the right mouse button, or have Cubase behaviour where right clicking opens a toolbox at the mouse cursor. Personally I find the dual assignable tools (you can actually have three on the Mac) to be a lifesaver when doing things like comping vocals - having the normal selection tool, scissors or marquee tool and mute tool under my mouse hand lets me cut up and comp multiple vocal tracks on the fly quicker than anything else...

Well, I'm not really trying to dismiss the usefulness of Logic's right-click behaviour. But a it does make the UI much harder to learn.When I use a new app, I right click on widgets to see what they do. Most good user interfaces are supposed to reveal themselves like this (in stages).

In Logic not only were the widgets often invisible, but when you right clicked on them, it didn't give you any useful hints about what you'd right clicked on.

I agree that experienced users should have the option to do whatever they want with the right mouse button.

Now of course I'm older and wiser and I know that it is proper and right for every music app and plugin to avoid 10 years of UI evolution/convergence and instead develop its own UI, preferably re-inventing perfectly sensible standard OS controls like scrolling lists and file browser dialogs. So now in retrospect my early complaints about Logic seem somewhat quaint.

Don't forget that much of the fundamental Logic UI elements were developed *before* that 10 year UI convergence. Logic 1.2 was on, what Mac System 7? The Mac OS (in fact most OS's) was a bit of a mess back then. And when you have a large app with a large professional userbase, there's a lot of inertia that resists changing fundamental things even if they could be better, because everyone will complain again.

Yeah, that's a really good point. I'm always curious how Apple (famous for pushing UI styleguides) is going to deal with Logic. I keep expecting them to come out with a "clean" version that completely pisses off the entire userbase.

Michael

[magog]

Although Cubase SX 3.2 is finally starting to get close. All I need is a key command to duplicate a track...

I'm almost sure there's one in the keycommands section.

Holy Moly! You're right! How did I miss that?! Thank you!

But hey, I thought you'd love rightclicking a lot... you can duplicate a track by rightclicking.

Nah, I'll use nothing but the keyboard if I can get away with it. At work, my mouse lies unused under a pile of paper. The only time I use the mouse is when trying to learn Logic

Besides, what I really want to do is to make a macro that duplicates the track and deletes the objects on it, so it's more or less the equivalent of what I could do in Logic with CTRL-Enter. Now I can do that!

Michael