sonar5pe or cubase sx3 which and why?

[Meffy]

Sonar and SX are pretty much equals, IMO.

And there's the heart of the issue. They're both excellent programs, each has some rough edges, each has some sterling features, and no matter which you choose you'll have the makings of a fine studio.

These days the trick lies not in picking the "best" (ha!) program, but picking the one whose annoyances get your goat the least. Finding what those annoyances are before buying isn't easy using a demo of Sonar, impossible using a non-existent demo of Cubase. And what annoys me will be minor glitches to you, while your annoyances might strike me as advantages.

o/~ Waltz me around again, Willie... o/~

A Steinberg product manager fairly recently said (on the Nuendo forum, I think) that they couldn't address a certain request because they were "busy preparing the industry for 64-bit."

Oh, dear. Embarrassing... :-D

[grymmjack]

re Ron Kuper: As I suspect you understand, I couldn't care less about "noble" (mighty dismissive, that). For Ron to show up here is useful to users and it shows yet again that the Cakewalk guys pay very close attention to their users and are connected. The impression I get from Steinberg, reinforced by many of their users, is the diametric opposite.

It was not my intention to dismiss it. Noble was the best word I could think of considering the association he has to cakewalk when compared to the users here. Perhaps a better adjective could have been chosen. I think it's awesome he connects to the users.

You assume I didn't read your long post. Nope. I simply disagree with your assessment of what is "bad design" and "good design," cannot for the life of me imagine what use a "unified brand" is to a musician -- nor to anyone except a marketing department -- and got tired of the pointless denigration. (When you resorted to cartoon characters getting sick, you left the bounds of what I consider reasoned discussion.)

Nah, I wasn't sure if you had read it because of the timing of your reply and my post were pretty close. I hoped you had not, but refered to it just in case (race condition). Also, it isn't the "brand" (atleast not in the common way such as McDonalds, or GM, or Levi jeans) it's the conformity of the design and unity of it all that enhances the usability as a standard.

Please don't bother with the point-by-point reply. I've read what you have to say and that will have to do.

It's a free world, and here is my reply. Ignore it if you like.

[headquest]

BTW, I love the quote in your sig. Is that from the Tao Te Ching? Great book, I should re-read it soon.

Yes, that's right. We should all re-read it - a helpful book indeed. Bringing it down to earth, I re-read "The Tao of Pooh" while on holiday last week - very refreshing!

But if you read my comments again without attaching any existing dogma or loyalty to sonar/cakewalk

You might be interested to know that I don't really have any such loyalty, because Sonar is not my main host anyway. Ableton Live 5 is my main host (and I also use Adobe Audition 2 and Reason 3 alongside it). I mainly have Sonar for educational purposes (I am a music teacher) because it remains useful to have one traditional host in my context.

The only reason I responded as I did to your original post was that you described Sonar's synths as "Crappier", which I felt was unfair, particularly when you went on to admit that you hadn't actually tried the better ones anyway! Obviously though I accept your right to expressing your opinion (however unfair I felt it was).

In terms of look and feel, I basically agree with you that Cubase has a more "integrated" appearance.

In terms of the OP, I don't understand the context for wanting another host anyway, as he stated he already has FL Studio and Ableton Live 5, both of which are fairly well featured. Perhaps its time for more clarification about what he is looking for and expecting to find in the two programmes mentioned in the thread title...?

In terms of integration, I think that Cubase/Reason work well (I have used/taught Cubase too), while FL integrates better with Sonar in that they are both native DX environments (so most of those synths and the Sonitus effects all work in FL Studioonce Sonar is installed... surely a nice bonus).

[Stupid American Pig]

Threads like this are the reason I come here. Each filling in their own passive aggressive reason why the host they bought is better.

[Stairsteps]

Does Cubase have rewire? can it intergrate reasons into it?

I have never had a single glitch with Sonar5, I have tons of free and not so free vsti's and the wrapper picks up all of them. Im not saying Cubase is bad but after having tried them both Sonar 5 is the one for my use.

I do like the look of Cubase however. But I dont make music thinking how great my GUI looks or that it is gonna make my song better because I dig the look of it or any of that noonsense that some ppl think but its the functionality of the product that matters the most.

Cubase = Glitches
Sonar5 was written specific for windows native it has the lowest CPU usage and the cleanest sound and better effects and instruments.

[Meffy]

I re-read "The Tao of Pooh" while on holiday last week - very refreshing!

Ever read "Winnie Ille Pu?" A.A. Milnius is at his best in the original Latin. "Cattus Petasatus" is another great ancient classic. And of course "Quomodo Invidiosulus Nomine Grinchus Christi Natalem Abrogaverit."

[grymmjack]

BTW, I love the quote in your sig. Is that from the Tao Te Ching? Great book, I should re-read it soon.

Yes, that's right. We should all re-read it - a helpful book indeed. Bringing it down to earth, I re-read "The Tao of Pooh" while on holiday last week - very refreshing!

I first read it on a plane trip to florida in 2001 christmas (and we were all afraid of 9/11 reprocussions). It really really opened my eyes and totally calmed me as I read it.

But if you read my comments again without attaching any existing dogma or loyalty to sonar/cakewalk

You might be interested to know that I don't really have any such loyalty, because Sonar is not my main host anyway. Ableton Live 5 is my main host (and I also use Adobe Audition 2 and Reason 3 alongside it). I mainly have Sonar for educational purposes (I am a music teacher) because it remains useful to have one traditional host in my context.

The only reason I responded as I did to your original post was that you described Sonar's synths as "Crappier", which I felt was unfair, particularly when you went on to admit that you hadn't actually tried the better ones anyway! Obviously though I accept your right to expressing your opinion (however unfair I felt it was).

Yes that was unfair, to be honest I was typing that message in the AM from bed and it's difficult to type laying down in the dark -- that is my fault. I apologize for that. I compare the two from the entire perception of them including all that they have to offer.

In terms of look and feel, I basically agree with you that Cubase has a more "integrated" appearance.

Which was the main point of the long reply to you. I am sorry if there were any confusions or hard feelings. I dont want to make enemies I just want to help and I admit was in error for dismissing the synths bundled as "crappy" on all fronts, and I was wrong to assume you had loyalties to sonar.

Thanks for your understanding.

Man I wish I had a music class where we got to use computers for music making! We had "crappy" (and this is totally intentional adjective abuse) recorders (flute instruments not tape decks) that we were stuck with. What a joke. And the english teacher was also our music teacher. Needless to say our school was poor.

[Meffy]

Music and art are always the first things to get cut back or axed when school budgets get tight. >:-(

"Well, we hadda shut down all th' classrooms... but we saved our State Champeen football team!"
-- Coach/Principal Butch "Butch" Brutely

[fhinspectit]

I mainly posted the question because i plan to record others in my home set up. I myself use fls for everything and then export wav. files to aa2 for finish up. I own a presonus firebox and am pleased with it. others who want to record either want cubase.sonar. or protools. i do not want to purchase another interface for pt, at the present time, hence the op. thanks for all the input and opinions from everyone

[Meffy]

The other people will be doing the actual recording, then? Can't you either (a) get them to love Fruitiness, since you've already got that, or (b) convince them to pay for the goodies since they're the ones who want 'em? :-D

[grymmjack]

Does Cubase have rewire? can it intergrate reasons into it?

Of course it has rewire

I have never had a single glitch with Sonar5, I have tons of free and not so free vsti's and the wrapper picks up all of them. Im not saying Cubase is bad but after having tried them both Sonar 5 is the one for my use.

I wish I could say the same. I have had tons of problems (more than with cubase if you can believe that). I think this comes from the fact of different hardware/different effects/synths tried. I know that steinbergs VST implementation is 100% dead-on, as they /invented/ VST. as an example some functionality just isn't possible with the external vst wrapper unfortunately...

I do like the look of Cubase however. But I dont make music thinking how great my GUI looks or that it is gonna make my song better because I dig the look of it or any of that noonsense that some ppl think but its the functionality of the product that matters the most.

It's not nonsense to me. In fact I bet it's not to you either, for the same reason you prefer sonar over cubase -- you are familiar with the interface and it works for you. It adheres to standards implied and grown over the years by the windows OS which you are already familiar. So for a moment consider if sonar suddenly didn't look the same. Wouldn't that make it harder for you to use and make the design worse? Why? What if the menu bars were suddenly at the bottom and the status at the top? What if the toolbars vanished? These basic concepts of design rules in the windows standard are there for a reason. They simplify complexity and make quick work of doing monotonous things. These are aspects of the "design". Design is more than just a visual, it is everything you interact with and how it all works together. So really, it's not nonsense is it? The path you take to functionality /IS/ design.

Cubase = Glitches
Sonar5 was written specific for windows native it has the lowest CPU usage and the cleanest sound and better effects and instruments.

"lowest CPU usage and cleanest sound" -- That is total fallacy and completely circumstantial. Sonar does not have the lowest CPU usage, and it doesn't sound "cleaner or better", in any scientific or provable way than cubase or anything else. There are so many variables that you cannot possibly make that statement fairly or prove it. The one thing sonar has got over the competition right now is 64bit. Sonar has that, nothing else (yet).

"Cubase = glitches" -- You have had glitches with cubase, but some of us (I am one) have had glitches with sonar and none with cubase. I think both of these have their own issues. And that is precisely why it's so difficult for us sometimes to make a decision and stick with it!! How frustrating is it to find a great new host (for example when I found T2) to only find some shortcoming that disqualifies it for you. Every single host has some issue or flaw, none of them are perfect, and it's more likely to choose several hosts for different reasons keeping in mind that it is the price we must pay to have things "just so" as we like them.

Sonar5 "written specific for windows native" -- yes WDM streaming and DX/DXi implementation means it is specific to windows, which, depending on your circumstances could be a bad thing (maybe not so bad anymore now that the mac-intel stuff is coming) if you are a mac user! Considering that some of us favor VST (since it's much more available, and cross platform) we may find the DX/DXi route a bad thing. I have not noticed any advantage to WDM over ASIO (with the exception that for some reason WDM runs better in sonar and ASIO runs better in cubase). I also have not noticed any intrinsic advantage to DX over VST plugins. No CPU usage savings, no better audio, same as their counterparts.

I can see now, in hindsight looking through the development of this thread, how this kind of thread could be a favorite for guys like Stupid American Pig. He's right, we're all wrong, we are all right, we all have opinions and they are all going to be different. I'm going to stop participating here in this thread I think just because it's obvious where it is going and without humility and benching of the egos (which are so entwined with opinion to begin with) it is going to end badly.

OP: I concur with the others, sonar and cubase are both excellent. Which you choose ultimately does not matter, it's your music that counts. Dont put it on hold lusting after the perfect host -- as there are no perfect ones. And good luck in your musical endeavors!

[headquest]

Does Cubase have rewire? can it intergrate reasons into it?

Yes of course. In fact I think that Rewire in Cubase is better implemented that it is in Sonar. I find Rewire in Sonar to be frustrating in its limitations (only MIDI output to 16 Reason devices, no stereo returns except mater L/R).

Ableton Live is a much better rewire host for Reason imho, because it is simply more flexible in terms of routing and accepting stereo returns.

[headquest]

I am sorry if there were any confusions or hard feelings. I dont want to make enemies I just want to help and I admit was in error for dismissing the synths bundled as "crappy" on all fronts, and I was wrong to assume you had loyalties to sonar.

No worries a tall

Man I wish I had a music class where we got to use computers for music making! We had "crappy" (and this is totally intentional adjective abuse) recorders (flute instruments not tape decks) that we were stuck with. What a joke. And the english teacher was also our music teacher. Needless to say our school was poor.

Music technology in schools is often poor, and in myh experience it is because of a lack of understanding on the part of the school that generalist discount PCs aren't always suitable for running complex programmes such as Cubase SX. Also, many class music teachers have on ly limited understanding of music technology. It is a great shame of course.

[whyterabbyt]

I know that steinbergs VST implementation is 100% dead-on, as they /invented/ VST.

...actually, for a long time, they kept changing their hidden host-side spec to suit functionality they rolled into their own commercial synths... that's hardly 'dead-on' if they have to modify the host to suit new functionality.

[Hunter]

the packaging is inferior though (each 3rd party plug is as-is, and not branded or consistent with the core app. this is an aspect of sonar that suffers when compared to cubase.

pfffffffffffffffffffft oh my god, its not as good because the plugins don't say 'Cakewalk' or 'Sonar5' on them?