The I Love Logic thread

[beej]

Well, I'm not really trying to dismiss the usefulness of Logic's right-click behaviour. But a it does make the UI much harder to learn.When I use a new app, I right click on widgets to see what they do. Most good user interfaces are supposed to reveal themselves like this (in stages).

That's probably because you are used to the Windows way, which certainly isn't the only way. Macs, Ataris, Unix, Linux etc have their own standards and ways of doing things. I'm not dismissing what you say at all, it's just not the only way. Logic originated on non-x86 platforms, and thus had to face a challange of how to design cross-platform versions that still kinda made sense on both platforms, when both platforms had some very different ways of doing things. These days it's a little easier, because as you say OS UI's have converged a fair amount.

Yeah, that's a really good point. I'm always curious how Apple (famous for pushing UI styleguides) is going to deal with Logic. I keep expecting them to come out with a "clean" version that completely pisses off the entire userbase.

Me too. What's good about Apple is they treat the applications they buy in with the proper respect - they genuinely want to improve them to be the best they can be, rather than just "Appley-fying" them for the sake of corporate style.

For instance, Final Cut Pro has largely been rewritten into a very Apple program - and it's never been better. With Shake however, it still feels like a Unix-style image-processing app, and they haven't moved it (as yet anyway) to an Apple interface at all, because it's current interface works brilliantly for many industry professionals.

My gut feeling with Logic is it will slowly get tidied up, and some things will change, but it won't fundamentally change. This is certainly already happening. But we'll just have to wait and see. I do think Logic's future is bright with Apple (despite the Garageband stuff, which isn't appealing to me). Logic 8 will certainly be an interesting release - we'll either see more praise than ever, or more bitching than ever...

[spaceman]

.. Logic 8 will certainly be an interesting release - we'll either see more praise than ever, or more bitching than ever...

both of them are a recipe for good old fashioned kvr fun

[jackson]

Any rumours on Logic 8 out there yet?

[jasonsantiago]

people who critique Logic either don't have a brain, have no manual or are just simply f**king pussies ..
or a combination of any of the above

Or need a desctructive editor and access to a much larger amount of third party plugins.

I can't live without a destructive editor built in, so logic isn't for me.

[jackson]

people who critique Logic either don't have a brain, have no manual or are just simply f**king pussies ..
or a combination of any of the above

Or need a desctructive editor and access to a much larger amount of third party plugins.

I can't live without a destructive editor built in, so logic isn't for me.

Huh? Logic has a destructive editor built in. What features are you looking for as I realise it doesn't use VST plugins destructively, but many audio functions are done destructively in the audio editor.

And I don't get what you mean "access to more 3rd party plugins". Very few plugins don't work in Logic and for those that don't, as Sascha pointed out, can be loaded through eXT (PC) or a VST-AU wrapper on the Mac.

[Sascha Franck]

Huh? Logic has a destructive editor built in. What features are you looking for as I realise it doesn't use VST plugins destructively, but many audio functions are done destructively in the audio editor.

I think he's talking about an editor allowing you to destructively apply effects and the likes to some file. Which, indeed, would be very handy.
The sample editor in Logic has allways been something truly bad. Might have changed a bit in version 7 (which I don't have regular access to), but it still falls short of what, say, Cubase has to offer.
Clip based editing straight in the arrange would be something I'd really love to see as well (a la Samplitude).

And I don't get what you mean "access to more 3rd party plugins". Very few plugins don't work in Logic and for those that don't, as Sascha pointed out, can be loaded through eXT (PC) or a VST-AU wrapper on the Mac.

Well, this seems to have changed in 7.1, but if you read the comments about all sorts of various compatibility problems in 7.0, well... it didn't look as if it was the most compatible host ever.

Something regarding plugin compatibility bothering me the most:
You won't be able to load your old songs anymore, even if you have an identical plugin set for both VST and AU versions.

For instance: I have a whole shitload of 5.5.1(PC) songs. On quite some of them I took care *not* to use anything that wasn't available on Macs as well (because I need to exchange songs between platforms quite regularly).
I.e., I have the complete NI collection of plugins, so that's what I'm using a lot.
Now, when I took a song with me to open it on the local conservatory's studio Mac (which has the same set of NI plugins installed), just imagine my amazement. The plugins simply wouldn't load automatically.
Using the VST to AU adapter wouldn't help either.

As a result, I will have to open each and every song I might ever try to open on my (someday to be aquired) Mac on my PC before, save each and every plugin setting (assuming the plugins have an internal preset menu...), then take those with me as well, reload the plugin in its AU reincarnation and then reload the preset.

IMO there should be some sort of routine along the lines of "VST plugin XYZ can't be loaded, try to load appropriate AU version instead? Yes/No".

In other words: Emapple completely f**ked up backwards compatibility when abandoning VST support.
Which is even more amazing as the AU format hasn't shown its benefits for us end users at all yet. Might be a great format to code in for programmers, but as almost all of them are doing VST/X and VST/Win versions anyways, nobody seems to exactly take advance of the AU format. There's nothing like lower CPU useage, nothing like revolutionary features, etc.
Yes, the AU standard might be better documented, but as an end user I couldn't care less.

[jackson]

Which is even more amazing as the AU format hasn't shown its benefits for us end users at all yet. Might be a great format to code in for programmers, but as almost all of them are doing VST/X and VST/Win versions anyways, nobody seems to exactly take advance of the AU format. There's nothing like lower CPU useage, nothing like revolutionary features, etc.
Yes, the AU standard might be better documented, but as an end user I couldn't care less.

I was always intrigued by the AU thing. Once people got over the audacity of emapple to simply drop support of THE standard plugin format, many genuinely believed AU to be the way forward and discussed at length the benefits of it. And yet, as you say, there have been no breakthroughs or even (to my knowledge, pardon me if I'm wrong) an AU with better/more features not available on the VST version. And which hosts other than Logic support AU now? DX plugins are dying for exactly the same reasons, I hear the format is supposedly superior to VST in some ways, but who cared?

[Sascha Franck]

Most likely the anti-VST thing (DX, AU) was a political issue.
But there might be some practical issues as well.

While the documentation for VST(i) programmers seems to be fairly decent, Steinbergs support for host developers seems to be less than shiny. Understandable, as they'd like Cubase and Nuendo to be *the* best VST hosts (which isn't even true, IMO eXT does a better job and VSTs could be automated in Logic when it wasn't even close to being possible in Cubase VST).

Yet, from what it seems, AUs are not exactly working all that much better in Logic as VSTs did in previous versions. So it doesn't seem to be that great of a deal.

But what do I know...

[beej]

I like the fact that one plugin file can have an audio instrument, the FX version, handle stereo and mono and conversions between each, and a number of other effects all within the one plugin file, rather than have a sprawl of DLL's for each.

That's probably the most direct benefit of AU to me personally. Keeps the plugin folder nicely organisable...

[jackson]

True, that does sound like a real benefit. But really, anything else?

[DHR53]

Considering there were very few (if any) of the "freebie" plugs from my old PC days, that I missed when I switched to Logic... I don't think too much about VST versus AU anymore. Some of the new "big guns" are so powerful and in AU format anyway, that I have more than enough sound making tools at my disposal... and if I was realistic about it, I don't really need all the ones I have. The unending stream of "buy and fly" license transfers going on in marketplace would seem to indicate, there's a lot of those "plentiful" VI's being sold shortly thereafter... I'm trying to stay with a few good core synths in AU, and the Logic stuff and see what I can do with them...

[jackson]

Good point. Logic clearly has the best collection of plugins bundled with any host. Even as I'm slowly migrating away from v5 now, I miss them. I need to sit down and write a list of requirements and fill it out with Logic plugin replacements

[Sascha Franck]

jackson, just out of interest: why don't you keep on using Logic?
What is it that it doesn't do for you?

I mean, I'm really kinda nerdy and love new technologies, but apart from better audio editing and probably full PDC (I rarely miss that though in Logic) I can't see much reasons to ever open Cubase SX, unless I have to prepare something for my computer music classes (we're using PCs running SX at the local conservatory).

[jackson]

jackson, just out of interest: why don't you keep on using Logic?
What is it that it doesn't do for you?

I mean, I'm really kinda nerdy and love new technologies, but apart from better audio editing and probably full PDC (I rarely miss that though in Logic) I can't see much reasons to ever open Cubase SX, unless I have to prepare something for my computer music classes (we're using PCs running SX at the local conservatory).

I don't know. I was really excited to get in to Ableton Live, but I can't afford it right now (according to the missus!)

After playing with that for a while, I went back to Logic and it just felt... I don't know, aged? Yes, like a fine wine that I knew very well, but I have a hard time keeping wine around long enough to age and end up drinking it too early. I guess I just feel like it's time to move on, and to be honest I'm really enjoying the buzz surrounding Energy XT (and XT2) and the rate of progress of it, even though in my mind it is still very primitive.

Mike

[jasonsantiago]

Huh? Logic has a destructive editor built in. What features are you looking for as I realise it doesn't use VST plugins destructively, but many audio functions are done destructively in the audio editor.

I think he's talking about an editor allowing you to destructively apply effects and the likes to some file. Which, indeed, would be very handy.

That's right. I do a LOT of work this way, so until Logic supports it I won't even consider it. Once you get hooked on desctructive editing, you will stop worrying so much about CPU strain and feel like you have unlimited cpu power... especially if your sequencer has an undo history for each specific file!

I used to load a finite number of effects in my host, and deal with that. Occasionally i'd spend the time to bounce and reimport and rearrange, but what a pain in comparison. I used to constantly want to upgrade my CPU and RAM -- now I don't care nearly as much and I just kind of shrug at dual core and such. I can keep my projects under 50% (along with owning a UAD-1) and feel unrestricted.

Funny, I love SX and would never open Logic for any reason!

And I don't get what you mean "access to more 3rd party plugins". Very few plugins don't work in Logic and for those that don't, as Sascha pointed out, can be loaded through eXT (PC) or a VST-AU wrapper on the Mac.

It's true that most commercial companies make AU versions now, but in terms of total plugins available (free, and quasi commercial included), VST is still king. Nothing to dispute, it's just sheer numbers.

In other words: Emapple completely f**ked up backwards compatibility when abandoning VST support.
Which is even more amazing as the AU format hasn't shown its benefits for us end users at all yet. Might be a great format to code in for programmers, but as almost all of them are doing VST/X and VST/Win versions anyways, nobody seems to exactly take advance of the AU format. There's nothing like lower CPU useage, nothing like revolutionary features, etc.
Yes, the AU standard might be better documented, but as an end user I couldn't care less.

I knew Apple was just blowing smoke with the whole AU hoopla -- it seems to have worked as many Logic users still claim the AU standard to be vastly superior (although I don't see how).

Had they kept VST along with usering in AU, it would have made me consider them (well, not until they get a desctructive editor). It took many companies a long time to move plugins to AU, and some still have not (some plugins will never make it). AU represented a $$ vaccum for third party developers. They had to make new versions of their plugins, and with no profit associated with that effort. This hurt the consumer, as we didn't get new plugin X or update to plugin Y because those dollars were spent on pointlessly reving their product for a plugin standard that has no direct benefit.

Dropping VST support was ill-advised, irresponsible, and selfish. It helped Apple only (via BS AU hype) and hurt the users of logic *as well as* all consumers of commercial software. That's right, even if you used PT LE on a PC, you were hit because your plugin MFG had to spend lots of dollars porting to AU, instead of creating a new plugin or updating the product.

And these are *ongoing* damages to the audio community. Instead of only dealing with VST and RTAS on both mac and windows, now MFG's have to do VST, AU, and RTAS on the mac. It makes plugins more expensive (or have fewer features/updates) for everyone, permanently. The plugin format wars are very sad.