Finally, my pretty extensive review of Philharmonik along with 3 sound examples is up at Trax Music. I've never seen a review go into as much detail as comparing to other libraries. I think this will be helpful to a LOT of people based on the amount of questions I get from many people on sample libraries in general.
http://www.traxmusic.org/reviews.shtml
Enjoy!
Devon
HUGE review of Philharmonik at Trax Music!
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- KVRAF
- 7886 posts since 24 Feb, 2003 from Earth, USA
Simple music philosophy - Those who can, make music. Those who can't, make excuses.
Read my VST reviews at Traxmusic!
Read my VST reviews at Traxmusic!
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
As thorough a review that it is and full of information especially about the sounds and mention of other orchestral libraries, for me there is too little focus on some of the more unique aspects of it all together as a plug-in. I am glad you pointed people to the videos on www.philharmonik.com (in the downloads section) though. That is something reviewers forget to mention or don't even know about sometimes. Although, there are so many cool things you can do with Stretch that virtually no other orchestral product does! For instance, changing the pitch of tremolo or flutter without the speed (or vibrato which you mention). Or the duration of staccato and detache in REAL TIME! That's amazing to be able to do that. Or even being able to preserve the formant for bends which if anything are a lot QUICKER than some fancy keyswitching for bend ups and bend downs (that are still limited by being stuck in their original time, even if that sounds better in VSL for example). A lot more trade-offs between large samples and switching vs. these samples and the particular technology it has to play it. We also provided many of theses uses of Stretch for the user with the Stretch programs. Then there are the BC programs for Breath Controller. The Macros for quick performance control and ways to get around the "machine gun" attack (also predone as presets called "AMV" which stands for Aftertouch/Modwheel/Velocity" where each is doing something). A lot of programming work and sample technology that is very different than even the most expensive orchestral collections.
Also, some of the sounds in Miroslav's set ARE multi-velocity. But they are left discrete at the part stage and combined dynamically in the Combi section under Dynamic Performance Combis. In fact, the Combi section is deep and the whole "instant orchestra" aspect of the Advanced combis is pretty unique and a lot of fun. Maybe not something pros that use VSL immediately go for but definitely something people love to play on workstation keyboards like Kurzweils and Motifs (which is where I got the idea from). Inspirational and also easy for ANYONE (let's say even non-classical musicians, media composers, dance artists etc.) to get a QUICK orchestral sound LIVE.
But, there are many many aspects of your review that are great. Overall the effort you put into it is also commendable too. Thanks! I know how it takes a passion and love for this stuff to even go to those lengths (and probably for little to no money as well... sadly). I think it offers a certain perspective though which is interesting. One who is into all of the various libraries and modules for orchestral work and has a history of seeing them evolve. You make some really good points.
Also, some of the sounds in Miroslav's set ARE multi-velocity. But they are left discrete at the part stage and combined dynamically in the Combi section under Dynamic Performance Combis. In fact, the Combi section is deep and the whole "instant orchestra" aspect of the Advanced combis is pretty unique and a lot of fun. Maybe not something pros that use VSL immediately go for but definitely something people love to play on workstation keyboards like Kurzweils and Motifs (which is where I got the idea from). Inspirational and also easy for ANYONE (let's say even non-classical musicians, media composers, dance artists etc.) to get a QUICK orchestral sound LIVE.
But, there are many many aspects of your review that are great. Overall the effort you put into it is also commendable too. Thanks! I know how it takes a passion and love for this stuff to even go to those lengths (and probably for little to no money as well... sadly). I think it offers a certain perspective though which is interesting. One who is into all of the various libraries and modules for orchestral work and has a history of seeing them evolve. You make some really good points.
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harmony gardens harmony gardens https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=12815
- KVRian
- 830 posts since 19 Feb, 2004 from Richland Center, Wisconsin
I enjoyed reading both the review and Squids response here. I am so glad that I have this collection. I feel like an idiot sometimes compaired to some of you, for your abilities to see all the under the hood things, but little prods like these make me observe more closely.
One thing takes no thought to observe. Load a sound into Philharmonik, press a key, and listen. Now press another note,,, you'll start to smile,,,, now play a chord,,, listen,,, and you'll smile. Now play something... is that me?? WOW
It's hard to sound bad when you're playing these great sounds. They have something inspiring about them. I've set it up for non keyboardists, and they are amazed that someone can have so much fun pressing down on pieces of plastic.
One thing takes no thought to observe. Load a sound into Philharmonik, press a key, and listen. Now press another note,,, you'll start to smile,,,, now play a chord,,, listen,,, and you'll smile. Now play something... is that me?? WOW
It's hard to sound bad when you're playing these great sounds. They have something inspiring about them. I've set it up for non keyboardists, and they are amazed that someone can have so much fun pressing down on pieces of plastic.
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
You know what? I finally bought all of the darn Orchestral products. Well, not Kirk Hunter's but... all of the other ones. I too like to compose and use this stuff so I can appreciate it as a musician and not just a biased competitor. In fact, one of my favorite sounding collections is the Sonic Implants one and just to show you how honest I am about that I am not really a fan of the company itself or its name. The owner has always been unfriendly to us and I've always sensed a weird attitude over there. On the contrary I have had only friendly exchanges with people like Gary Garritan and Nick Phoenix. In fact, we all appreciate each others work and have bought each other's libraries over the years. I remember Nick bought Interactive String Section from SR about 7 years ago! At the time he had only Quantum Leap Guitars and wasn't sure if he really wanted to do sampling full time. He's really done some great work since then.
I think each library has its plus and minus points. None of them are perfect. There are trade-offs everywhere you go. One of the BIGGEST trade-offs I've been encountering is the whole lean on CPU and HD space of Philharmonik VS. the GROSS weight of some of the more expensive orchestral libraries on the market. It took me 2 days to install my recently purchased Sonic Implants full collection. Not that it isn't worth it. Don't get me wrong. I really don't mind dedicated a ton of hard drives and space to samples. But, I am also a major laptop user. I really like to take Miroslav Philharmonik wherever I go. On the desktop, laptop, Mac or PC...
I used to do a fair amount of TV scoring when I was in LA. Mostly ghost writing. One of the things you are up against with TV work is writing it and getting it completed in a matter of a few days for a weekly show. CRAZY pressure. I used to have Roland samplers back when I wrote with Kevin Gilbert. If I had Philharmonik back then it would have been so much easier and faster.
One of my passions is to score to picture. If I was working on a score today (which I hope to be in the future but right now I am too busy sampling) I would use Philharmonik as my main writing tool and then go to the various expensive and large collections for specific things (and/or at that point hire a real orchestra or partial one to mix in with the virtual). Perhaps I would pick and choose this and that from various libraries that are my "favorites" for certain vibes, styles, moods etc. I haven't actually done that yet for myself (right now I have each library together with itself because I don't want to turn it into a mess... takes up enough space on HDs as it is!).
Anyway, there are trade-offs. Right when you think VSL is the best of the best you hear it in context of a certain piece of music and you NEVER KNOW which one is going to sound the best. In the end, think about it. People are hearing MUSIC! They are not always hearing everything that you're doing with switching this and that and how many gigabytes of samples on your HD. Even though that could be the trick to get more realism in certain instances (especially where it can really be detected such as a solo piece) in the context of a lot of music for film or pop and other styles what matters most is the timbre, the emotion, how it sits in the mix, how well it was played (by both the musician sampled and the musician playing the samples).
Of course, trying to replicate a classical piece with any virtual orchestra can be challenging. The many gigabytes and additional articulations, switching etc. of the more expensive orchestral collections these days do get your more mileage when trying to do that. Although, a LOT of that end result STILL comes down MORE to the MUSICIAN himself than the sample collection! In other words, unless you are a phenominal musician who can really get the most out of it then it could even be a waste of money and hard drive space for things you couldn't even make full use of! There ARE people out there who can and I've heard some astounding results. A new breed of classical midi composers! It's really interesting. Although, I think if someone is that good then they can get a lot out of Philharmonik as well. Take Luca's Miroslav Philharmonik demos as an example. Here's someone (named Lux on the forums) who I met on Northern Sounds. He has used a lot of the high end orchestral products and makes GREAT sounding music with them. He took Philharmonik and made some GORGEOUS music with it. Blew ME away! (I wish I had some of his chops actually).
Just food for thought. The orchestral sample market is a very interesting thing to discuss because there are so many different angles to it. I think Devon's perspective is from a pro who can afford or has connections to get anything and everything. I can relate to that as a pro and gear slut myself! On the other hand, I know how a lot of musicians who are either in time-crunch work situations or on a budget or don't want a steep learning curve or don't want to read huge thick manuals or want to take their collections around on a laptop or don't want to take up 80-500 gigs of HD space for just their orchestra sounds (gotta leave at least 100 gigs open for some Studio ProFile multitrack drum loops right?
).
Anyway, Philharmonik has been out for a little while now. It is definitely SR's most successful product. I don't know about for IK but no one is complaining! I think it hits the nail on the head for what MOST people need in an orchestral and choir plug-in. Even if it isn't perfect. The saying "you get what you pay for" sometimes has a negative connotation. But, what Devon was also saying there was that at $599 MSRP it hits a mark! It has more than GPO and less than VSL and the price reflects that. So, this is probably why it is successful. Well, maybe also because it used to be so darn expensive and had a legacy. I agree that it is a lot more accessible of a price and more appropriately priced for today's market. (I can also appreciate it because I, for one, never got around to buying the original $3,000-4,000 collection Miroslav made! Always wanted to though...).
Wow... a post longer than Devon's review? No, nothing is longer than that review! 
I think each library has its plus and minus points. None of them are perfect. There are trade-offs everywhere you go. One of the BIGGEST trade-offs I've been encountering is the whole lean on CPU and HD space of Philharmonik VS. the GROSS weight of some of the more expensive orchestral libraries on the market. It took me 2 days to install my recently purchased Sonic Implants full collection. Not that it isn't worth it. Don't get me wrong. I really don't mind dedicated a ton of hard drives and space to samples. But, I am also a major laptop user. I really like to take Miroslav Philharmonik wherever I go. On the desktop, laptop, Mac or PC...
I used to do a fair amount of TV scoring when I was in LA. Mostly ghost writing. One of the things you are up against with TV work is writing it and getting it completed in a matter of a few days for a weekly show. CRAZY pressure. I used to have Roland samplers back when I wrote with Kevin Gilbert. If I had Philharmonik back then it would have been so much easier and faster.
One of my passions is to score to picture. If I was working on a score today (which I hope to be in the future but right now I am too busy sampling) I would use Philharmonik as my main writing tool and then go to the various expensive and large collections for specific things (and/or at that point hire a real orchestra or partial one to mix in with the virtual). Perhaps I would pick and choose this and that from various libraries that are my "favorites" for certain vibes, styles, moods etc. I haven't actually done that yet for myself (right now I have each library together with itself because I don't want to turn it into a mess... takes up enough space on HDs as it is!).
Anyway, there are trade-offs. Right when you think VSL is the best of the best you hear it in context of a certain piece of music and you NEVER KNOW which one is going to sound the best. In the end, think about it. People are hearing MUSIC! They are not always hearing everything that you're doing with switching this and that and how many gigabytes of samples on your HD. Even though that could be the trick to get more realism in certain instances (especially where it can really be detected such as a solo piece) in the context of a lot of music for film or pop and other styles what matters most is the timbre, the emotion, how it sits in the mix, how well it was played (by both the musician sampled and the musician playing the samples).
Of course, trying to replicate a classical piece with any virtual orchestra can be challenging. The many gigabytes and additional articulations, switching etc. of the more expensive orchestral collections these days do get your more mileage when trying to do that. Although, a LOT of that end result STILL comes down MORE to the MUSICIAN himself than the sample collection! In other words, unless you are a phenominal musician who can really get the most out of it then it could even be a waste of money and hard drive space for things you couldn't even make full use of! There ARE people out there who can and I've heard some astounding results. A new breed of classical midi composers! It's really interesting. Although, I think if someone is that good then they can get a lot out of Philharmonik as well. Take Luca's Miroslav Philharmonik demos as an example. Here's someone (named Lux on the forums) who I met on Northern Sounds. He has used a lot of the high end orchestral products and makes GREAT sounding music with them. He took Philharmonik and made some GORGEOUS music with it. Blew ME away! (I wish I had some of his chops actually).
Just food for thought. The orchestral sample market is a very interesting thing to discuss because there are so many different angles to it. I think Devon's perspective is from a pro who can afford or has connections to get anything and everything. I can relate to that as a pro and gear slut myself! On the other hand, I know how a lot of musicians who are either in time-crunch work situations or on a budget or don't want a steep learning curve or don't want to read huge thick manuals or want to take their collections around on a laptop or don't want to take up 80-500 gigs of HD space for just their orchestra sounds (gotta leave at least 100 gigs open for some Studio ProFile multitrack drum loops right?
). Anyway, Philharmonik has been out for a little while now. It is definitely SR's most successful product. I don't know about for IK but no one is complaining! I think it hits the nail on the head for what MOST people need in an orchestral and choir plug-in. Even if it isn't perfect. The saying "you get what you pay for" sometimes has a negative connotation. But, what Devon was also saying there was that at $599 MSRP it hits a mark! It has more than GPO and less than VSL and the price reflects that. So, this is probably why it is successful. Well, maybe also because it used to be so darn expensive and had a legacy. I agree that it is a lot more accessible of a price and more appropriately priced for today's market. (I can also appreciate it because I, for one, never got around to buying the original $3,000-4,000 collection Miroslav made! Always wanted to though...).
Wow... a post longer than Devon's review?
No, nothing is longer than that review! -
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 7886 posts since 24 Feb, 2003 from Earth, USA
My work for Trax is about freedom and passion. Freedom to write as long or as short of a review that I want (no editor bugging me to hit a word count!) and passion, because I don't get paid a dime to do work for Trax. That review took me HOURS and HOURS to write. My real "payment" is the thanks I get from others for steering them in the right direction and helping the community as a whole.Squids wrote:But, there are many many aspects of your review that are great. Overall the effort you put into it is also commendable too. Thanks! I know how it takes a passion and love for this stuff to even go to those lengths (and probably for little to no money as well... sadly). I think it offers a certain perspective though which is interesting. One who is into all of the various libraries and modules for orchestral work and has a history of seeing them evolve. You make some really good points.
I felt the people who are not familiar with the high end libraries and wondered what they are missing got a real answer from someone who isn't trying to sell them something.
The review is quite positive in many ways. It's only really negative if the facts I point out are important aspects to you. If not, then they become a positive aspect of the library! Got to keep it all in perspective. Glad people are enjoying the review, and I hope it helps out a lot of people to make the right purchase for their hard earned dollar. $599 isn't cheap to a lot of people. Sometimes it's nice to know what you're missing from the high end "stuff" just to find out it's nothing that's all that important to you!
Devon
Simple music philosophy - Those who can, make music. Those who can't, make excuses.
Read my VST reviews at Traxmusic!
Read my VST reviews at Traxmusic!
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- KVRAF
- 2582 posts since 24 Apr, 2003 from Canada
Devon, that was a very good review. Thanks for taking the time!
I'd be very curious to read a review by you of the new Kirk Hunter libraries...
I'd be very curious to read a review by you of the new Kirk Hunter libraries...
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- KVRAF
- 3476 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from NE Ohio, USA
I'm hoping for a Kontakt version of Sapphire, but the website's been redesigned and the Sapphire links are all broken right now.Jeremy_NSL wrote:Devon, that was a very good review. Thanks for taking the time!
I'd be very curious to read a review by you of the new Kirk Hunter libraries...
Doug
Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad - Spock, in "I, Mudd"
For a good time click http://www.belindabedekovic.com/video_fl_en.htm
For a good time click http://www.belindabedekovic.com/video_fl_en.htm
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 7886 posts since 24 Feb, 2003 from Earth, USA
I'd love to do a review of the library, but I don't see it on my radar. If someone could convince him for me, it be lovely. I own his Solo Strings collection which are fantastic, and are some of the best strings on the market, at any price point.Jeremy_NSL wrote:Devon, that was a very good review. Thanks for taking the time!
I'd be very curious to read a review by you of the new Kirk Hunter libraries...
Devon
Simple music philosophy - Those who can, make music. Those who can't, make excuses.
Read my VST reviews at Traxmusic!
Read my VST reviews at Traxmusic!
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- KVRAF
- 2582 posts since 24 Apr, 2003 from Canada
I don't know if anyone of us could 'convince him'. But why not send him a link to your Philharmonik review? That shows you are a detailed, fair reviewer. Also it shows you see legitimate room for improvement in these types of libraries - that his libraries may provide
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 7886 posts since 24 Feb, 2003 from Earth, USA
Well, I just know the sample community is a bit 'different' when it comes to reviews and giving out NFR's. Besides, it opens me up to do magazine reviews instead, which ain't a bad thing either.Jeremy_NSL wrote:I don't know if anyone of us could 'convince him'. But why not send him a link to your Philharmonik review? That shows you are a detailed, fair reviewer. Also it shows you see legitimate room for improvement in these types of libraries - that his libraries may provide
I'd rather write for print than just the web page.Devon
Simple music philosophy - Those who can, make music. Those who can't, make excuses.
Read my VST reviews at Traxmusic!
Read my VST reviews at Traxmusic!