KVR Audio

Guitarded · Post by **Guitarded** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:52 am

Hi all. Looking to get some good heavy guitar sounds using the Simulanalog Guitar Suite and I'm having some trouble. I'm using it as a plugin in Sonar 4 PE, and the two problems are as follows:

1. I just cannot get that nice, searing, saturated distortion. My recorded track level is as high as it should go without peaking out the meters too heavy, I go to channel B of the JCM900 and turn the gain all the way up. The volume slider that represents the volume knob of the Marshall also gets set all the way up. It's still not enough distortion for those nice, singing guitar solos! And having the gain and volume cranked brings the noise floor of the guitar up to ridiculous levels.

2. I just can't seem to get rid of the dry signal with this plugin. There's no wet/dry control, just the beforementioned level control that represents the master volume knob on a JCM900. If I turn the volume all the way down on the plugin, I hear the dry signal. I can only try to mask it by turning the volume all the way up so it buries the dry, but even then you can still hear the dry attack of the pick on the strings, so I know the dry sound is still there. I don't know how to get rid of it!

Thanks for reading, and any advice on this is highly appreciated.

Muzik 4 Machines · Post by **Muzik 4 Machines** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:09 am

use_the_ds1_first
2-use_a_MONO_track
they_are_not_stereo_plugins

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:19 am

Also, there is more to the equation in most cases than just one instance of an amp sim. What kind of sound are you going for (using an example of a well-known song, or at least well-known for the genre that you're working in).

Greg

warren · Post by **warren** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:47 am

cyberpink wrote:use_the_ds1_first
2-use_a_MONO_track
they_are_not_stereo_plugins

Is your spacebar broken?

Um, underscores aside, that guy is right. If you're recording in stereo you'll get the dry signal with the wet. You have to use a mono track with simulanalog. If you want a stereo track you can always mix it down to one after you record your part, and then add whatever stereo effects you want, i.e. delay, reverb, etc.

He's right about using the stompbox thingies too. put one of the distortion pedals before the amp. They all work nicely, the tube screamer, sd-1, ds-1... try them all and find which one you like best.

Also, I don't know what you're using to run your guitar through into your soundcard, but that can make a huge difference in sound as well. You need a decent DI box to get the most from those plug ins.

Guitarded · Post by **Guitarded** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:52 am

Thanks for the quick response, guys. After reading various things, experimenting, and tearing my hair out, I'm so close to doing this right I can almost taste it! Couple quick questions.

1. I've tried putting the ds1 before the amp and that really cranks up the noise floor. If I turn the gain levels down to control the noise then I don't get the gain I'm looking for. Perhaps I'm missing other stuff like reverb and delay? Then again, I practice totally dry through my real Marshall and it sounds great.

2. I think you're right on with the mono thing, but don't know where I've gone wrong. My signal goes like this. Guitar to an external mixer that temporarily serves as my interface. Guitar mixer channel is panned hard left. Left and right RCA master outs from the board go to a stereo 1/8" plug into the onboard sound card (crappy I know, but it's only 'till I get an E-MU). In Windows mixer "recording" view, line in is checked and panned center. In Sonar, I made a template with only one track for recording audio. That track receives it's input from the left ASIO v2 AC97 Realtek driver. The mixer channel for the track is panned center so I can hear the guitar coming out of both speakers. Am I going wrong with the center panning in Windows mixer or the channel strip in Sonar? I'm losing what hair I have left!

By the way, the style of music I'm looking to do is show-off shred guitar stuff, so that's why I'm looking for the sustainy saturation.

Thanks again.

Guitarded · Post by **Guitarded** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:01 am

Hi, Warren. Didn't realize you posted while I was typing my last response. Hopefully I answered some of your points there.

I'll tell ya. Getting going here has been a trying experience. Just started using my freshly built DAW when a power spike came along and really hosed it up. Yes I was using good SP's, just the grounding in my house isn't great. After much troubleshooting and taking the thing apart, I think I got away with only a damaged RAM chip. Now with a fresh Windows and apps install, 2 weeks behind where I would've been in the learning curve, I'm ready to go.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:45 am

It's very unlikely that your mixer has Hi-Z inputs. They make them, of course, but it's not common. So, even though it may seem like your signal is arriving at your computer intact, you're losing a LOT of the signal, not necessarily in terms of dB, but in terms of getting the full harmonic range of your guitar.

Next, you're using AC97 + an external mixer. That's not likely to give you a clean noise floor like plugging straight into your amp would. Also, when plugging into your amp, your computer (and possibly CRT monitors?) doesn't factor in.

Regarding the dry signal-- I'd have to know exactly how your mixer is set up, but is it possible that some of the dry signal is going directly from the mixer to the speakers, without any intervening processing? Or, do you have the other input "armed" even though you're not recording with it?

I know that it's not a great solution to throw money at a problem, but you'd be doing well to get yourself something like the TonePort UX1 (on a budget) or UX2 (for only a little extra, to safeguard against future phantom power needs). Some of the amp models are ideal for flashy guitar stuff! Plus, you'd have a properly impedance-matched input, and with its "direct" (not really, but closer than ASIO!) monitoring, worrying about latency would be a thing of the past.

ASIO-compliant soundcard, amp modeling, and direct box. Sounds like a good solution for your needs!

Even GuitarPort would get you partway there, for less money.

Greg

Frippertronix · Post by **Frippertronix** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:48 am

I hate to say it but it will be hard to get great saturated lead guitar out of a plugin, just as it is hard to get it out of a DI rackmount preamp. Driven speaker cabinets are hard to do without in achieving that sound. I usually use my plugins (Simuanalog, Trash, Fuzz+) for crunchy chords which I then sing or play synth over. DI w/ or w/o plugins usually works best with cleaner sounding guitar leads.

Newbie Brad · Post by **Newbie Brad** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:02 pm

If you want to experiment, try a little trick for over the top, put the Redneck Twin plug inline (in series) with the Marshall plug. For a more interactive feedback speaker emulation, try BetaBugs Audio's FeedBug (designed by Christian Budde).

Guitarded · Post by **Guitarded** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:03 pm

Excellent info, guys. Thanks.

Yeah, the mixer doing duty as a temporary interface is my old Tascam 644 four track. I'll dig up the manual because I forget if it has hi-Z's, but all the strips do have trim knobs. Super powerful as the mixer is (for a 4 track), I never thought it did really well with guitars. The drum machine always got a better sound through it.

So if you guys are stacking plugins for more gain, how do you control the noise? I guess it is a point that most people are using a decent interface and card, so would it be safe to assume you can stack a couple amps and the noise isn't too bad? I'm thinking of the 1820M when I finally have some disposable income again down the road.

Funkybot · Post by **Funkybot** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:55 pm

Sonar does not properly handle mono effects. It's a problem they've been aware of for quite some time and have yet to fix. Thus only the left channel will get processed with the effect while the right channel will always be clean.

Now aside from that, another good trick would be to run a compressor before the amp sim.

sboullion · Post by **sboullion** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:06 pm

The first thing You need, as already pointed out, is a DI. You'll never get a decent sound without it. Secondly, it's not so much stacking plugs that gets that sound, as doubling (or even tripling or quadrupling) the guitar part. Physically recording the part more than once. Back the distortion off and double the guitars. Change the tone a little for each pass. Think about Zakk Wyldes tone - plug straight into a JCM800, turn it all the way up, and do four tracks of the rhythm. Doesn't work so much for solos, unless You're very precise in your playing, but for rhythm parts it's the way.

The weakness of digital modelling is high gain distortion. The SimulAnalog JCM900 comes fairly close, but I've never heard digital modelling that thrilled me, including PODs and the like. As a matter of fact I just sold my J-Station. I think they can do a fair job with clean tones, but mega distortion always sounds brittle through them, to me.

Best thing You can do is get a Hughes and Kettner Tubeman, if You can get Your hands on one.

jeffn1 · Post by **jeffn1** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:14 pm

In Sonar I followed the instructions in this link and it seems to have done the trick.

Good luck.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=6163 ... n1&#616461

jeffn1

Fredrikgroth · Post by **Fredrikgroth** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:03 am

My experiences:

- Best solution for the Guitar Suite plugins to work in Sonar is to use another wrapper than the included VST Adapter. I use FXpansion Directixer, works great.

- To be able to get the gain you want (using tube screamer -> JCM900) without adding to much noise you need a relly clean signal chain... the too-low-impedance inputs of a mixer won't work too good. Get a good preamp with a hi-z instrument input and connect it straight to the line input(s) of your soundcard. That would be the cleanest solution possible.

- Settings on the Tube Screamer should be something like drive 3, tone 5 and level 7 if I recall correctly. (9, 12 and 2 o'clock on a real pedal)

David Watts · Post by **David Watts** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:44 am

Other possible reasons for the high noise floor:
- cheap guitar cord
- guitar picking up noise from computer power supply or monitor; even a guitar with humbuckers picks up noise if you are too near a CRT monitor
I get my guitar into the computer via a very good cord, a Boss GT5, a Behringer Mixer and an EMU1820m and stay well away from the computer and even my TFT monitors. I can dial in massive gain/overdrive from whatever plugin without any noise building up.

Not getting enough saturation from guitar suite