BTW, I don't have a soundcard with hardware SF player, but from discussions about piano soundfonts, I get the impression that dynamics can be very different between sfz and SBLive (for example). From studying the SF spec I wouldn't expect it, though. I'm interested to hear if anyone's done an A/B comparison.
The result is that soundfonts would generally sound better on the player the designer used. However, parameter adjustment is all that would be required to correct it.
What I don't know about soundfonts
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- KVRian
- 500 posts since 13 Oct, 2004 from Durham, NC USA
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- KVRer
- 10 posts since 18 Feb, 2006
Great thread. I've played around with Soundfonts quite a bit using sfz soft-synthesizer, but have never tried Soundfonts in a hardware card. I have found many good free piano, cello, bassoon, etc. Soundfonts. I have also found many rather unusable ones.
This is probably a rather noobish question, but what other sample formats exist besides Soundfont and what are their strengths?
This is probably a rather noobish question, but what other sample formats exist besides Soundfont and what are their strengths?
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- KVRAF
- 1933 posts since 29 Apr, 2005 from Beyond all space, time, and dimension.
Some of them are really quite surprising in their quality. I really love the jeux pipe organ.
Here is my small version:
PLEASE VISIT www.thehungersite.com DAILY AND CLICK THE LINKS. THEY DONATE MONEY TO CHARITY BASED ON AD INCOME. IT'S FREE!
PLEASE VISIT www.thehungersite.com DAILY AND CLICK THE LINKS. THEY DONATE MONEY TO CHARITY BASED ON AD INCOME. IT'S FREE!
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- KVRist
- 38 posts since 1 Dec, 2005
Definitely agreed. Much love for SFZ.learjeff wrote:Start out using sfz, which is simple, free, and great. Where you go from there depends on your needs.
I was aware that for most intents and purposes it was the same, but I was uncertain as to whether or not they were the same as far as polyphony was concerned, and that other editors would read interpret it as a stereo sample, so thanks for the clarification. I do apologize if I came off as contentious here: I mostly wanted to clear up my own understanding of the whole thing, and to make sure I wasn't completely crazy about the 2 mono files thing happeningSnoogins, there's no difference between two mono samples panned apart and a stereo sample. In other words, Viena shows them as two mono samples, but other editors show them as a stereo sample. It's all just a matter of interpretation. You can avoid the issue by using "sfz" which supports stereo audio files.
Yes, you would run into the voice stealing issue twice as fast with stereo. This is true regardless of the internal representation.
And actually, on a slightly related note, I've already gone to working more with SFZ than soundfonts, though I'm way too lazy to convert every single .sf2 I have laying around.About the differences between hardware/software: I haven't tested it extensively, and have BARELY used the hardware support at all. However, when you mentioned the dynamics, a situation I ran into a few months back came to mind. I was compiling a drum kit soundfont from a whole host of samples I had collected... when I loaded it on the hardware to test it, it was very oddly quiet. I increased the volume setting and got it to the point where it was playing fine. I saved this new version of the soundfont, but when I played this new one back in SFZ, it was ludicrously loud and distorted. The two fonts remained consistent: the 'loud' one sounding normal on hardware, overloaded on SFZ, and the 'soft' one sounding fine on SFZ, and barely showing up on hardware.
Oddly, this was the first time I could remember such a drastic difference between SFZ and the Hardware. Who knows.
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- KVRian
- 500 posts since 13 Oct, 2004 from Durham, NC USA
np, snoogins! And thanks for the data point on sfz vs. hw player. Maybe someday I'll start a thread on the subject & see what we can learn: might be helpful for sound designers who don't have Creative cards (like me, since I use a laptop).
Remline, most major commercial sample players have their own formats. This includes software players and hardware samplers (PC hardware as well as keyboards and rack-mount MIDI instruments). It's a long list. For exmaple, see this list at Extreme Sample Converter site.
There's another format called "sfz", which the "sfz" soundfont supports in addition to .sf2 (the standard soundfont, and .sf1 an older version). The "sfz" format is nice because it leaves the audio files in their native form (wave files or Ogg-Vorbis for compressed audio similar to MP3), and uses a nerd-readable control file which is a lot easier to fiddle with than the binary .sf2 format.
Other than .sf2 and possibly .sfz, the formats are proprietary and not intended for use with players by different manufacturers. Thus, .sf2 is the lingua franca for free & cheap samples.
There are very good programs to convert between formats, such as Extreme (mentioned above) and CDXtract (google to find it). Not all information from one format will always convert to another format because some have features that others don't, but most of the time these are relatively esoteric features, or else they're nice but not crucial for the sound.
Most commercial sound designers offer their products in a wide variety of formats, so if you find a great sound for Halion or Kontakt, chances are you can buy it and convert it to soundfont and it'll sound great using sfz. Might need some tweaking, of course, but that's true even of pro stuff right out of the box because people are different and MIDI keyboards differ too.
Shucks, even real pianos get adjusted ("voiced") for their owners -- for serious players.
Remline, most major commercial sample players have their own formats. This includes software players and hardware samplers (PC hardware as well as keyboards and rack-mount MIDI instruments). It's a long list. For exmaple, see this list at Extreme Sample Converter site.
There's another format called "sfz", which the "sfz" soundfont supports in addition to .sf2 (the standard soundfont, and .sf1 an older version). The "sfz" format is nice because it leaves the audio files in their native form (wave files or Ogg-Vorbis for compressed audio similar to MP3), and uses a nerd-readable control file which is a lot easier to fiddle with than the binary .sf2 format.
Other than .sf2 and possibly .sfz, the formats are proprietary and not intended for use with players by different manufacturers. Thus, .sf2 is the lingua franca for free & cheap samples.
There are very good programs to convert between formats, such as Extreme (mentioned above) and CDXtract (google to find it). Not all information from one format will always convert to another format because some have features that others don't, but most of the time these are relatively esoteric features, or else they're nice but not crucial for the sound.
Most commercial sound designers offer their products in a wide variety of formats, so if you find a great sound for Halion or Kontakt, chances are you can buy it and convert it to soundfont and it'll sound great using sfz. Might need some tweaking, of course, but that's true even of pro stuff right out of the box because people are different and MIDI keyboards differ too.
Shucks, even real pianos get adjusted ("voiced") for their owners -- for serious players.
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- KVRist
- 46 posts since 2 Sep, 2005 from Calgary, Canada
Now I'm really confused.
I sent an email to Creative help to try and get the lowdown on the existence of a 2.1 Soundfont Spec, and the first answer questioned whether I meant the Soundfont Bank Manager application. I've sent a reply to that referring to this thread and the FAQ link that Learjeff listed (bottom of pg 1).
I've been playing around a bit with Vienna 2.4 and have apparently been able to load a 48/24 stereo file into an existing 16 bit soundfont. It plays OK in Vienna, but whether I'm hearing it in 16 or 24 is a good question (and with the cold I have right now, I wouldn't attempt to compare anything).
On the status bar in Vienna 2.4 there is a window which displays the soundfont size in either 16 or 24 bit (it toggles the bit depth when you click it), yet when you try to save the font there seems to be no 16 or 24 bit option, which I might have expected.
And just to confuse things further, in the save window you are offered to save as "SoundFont2.4Banks(*sf2)" or "SoundFont2.1Banks(*.sf2)".
Also, in help for the SoundFont Bank manager, it specifically states that SFBM is compatible with SoundFont 1.0, 2.0 and 2.1 file formats.
I'll post again when I hear from Creative, but for now I'm wondering if I'm an idiot or just missing the point on something really simple.
Help?
I sent an email to Creative help to try and get the lowdown on the existence of a 2.1 Soundfont Spec, and the first answer questioned whether I meant the Soundfont Bank Manager application. I've sent a reply to that referring to this thread and the FAQ link that Learjeff listed (bottom of pg 1).
I've been playing around a bit with Vienna 2.4 and have apparently been able to load a 48/24 stereo file into an existing 16 bit soundfont. It plays OK in Vienna, but whether I'm hearing it in 16 or 24 is a good question (and with the cold I have right now, I wouldn't attempt to compare anything).
On the status bar in Vienna 2.4 there is a window which displays the soundfont size in either 16 or 24 bit (it toggles the bit depth when you click it), yet when you try to save the font there seems to be no 16 or 24 bit option, which I might have expected.
And just to confuse things further, in the save window you are offered to save as "SoundFont2.4Banks(*sf2)" or "SoundFont2.1Banks(*.sf2)".
Also, in help for the SoundFont Bank manager, it specifically states that SFBM is compatible with SoundFont 1.0, 2.0 and 2.1 file formats.
I'll post again when I hear from Creative, but for now I'm wondering if I'm an idiot or just missing the point on something really simple.
Help?
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- KVRist
- 46 posts since 2 Sep, 2005 from Calgary, Canada
Well, here's what happened.
Original Question:
"I'd like some clarification on the current Soundfont Spec. Is it 2.1, or
2.01? Is there a link where I can find a copy?"
Answer:
"With regards to the issue you are having, may I clarify if you are referring to the SoundFont Bank Manager application?
The SoundFont Bank Manager bundled with your X-Fi card is compatible
with SoundFont 1.0, 2.0, and 2.1 file formats.
This information is available in the SoundFont Bank Manager .chm help
file under the subtopic, Introduction.
Do reply back to me if you have any more enquires. Thank you."
Reply:
"There seems to be much confusion around this at the moment. If you have
time, you might have a look at this thread on KVR
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 69883f69a8
In the features list for the X-fi cards it mentions support for 24 bit
soundfonts, and in the help files for Vienna 2.4 it says that Vienna
supports the Soundfont 2.1 format.
If you follow Creatives FAQ links, you'll end up here
http://www.soundblaster.com/soundfont/sfspec21.pdf which is a 1998
document describing the Soundfont 2.01 specification.
I believe the 2.01 spec is explicit in stating that soundfonts are 16 bit.
By now I'm sure you can see the confusion. Is there a Soundfont 2.1 Spec?
Does it support the creation of a 24 bit soundfont?"
Answer #2:
"Thank you for your reply.
Yes, there is a Soundfont 2.1 specification.
Soundfonts are not measured in bits that wave based files. Soundfonts
are just measured on their size. "
This really isn't much help at all. I guess it's time to give up?
Makes me suspicious about this "24-bit Crystalizer". I think Learjeff is right on about the hype, and that is why I'd resisted cards like this in the past. Who needs all the hocus pocus?
Learjeff, I'll try building a 24 bit font this afternoon and see what happens.
Keith
Original Question:
"I'd like some clarification on the current Soundfont Spec. Is it 2.1, or
2.01? Is there a link where I can find a copy?"
Answer:
"With regards to the issue you are having, may I clarify if you are referring to the SoundFont Bank Manager application?
The SoundFont Bank Manager bundled with your X-Fi card is compatible
with SoundFont 1.0, 2.0, and 2.1 file formats.
This information is available in the SoundFont Bank Manager .chm help
file under the subtopic, Introduction.
Do reply back to me if you have any more enquires. Thank you."
Reply:
"There seems to be much confusion around this at the moment. If you have
time, you might have a look at this thread on KVR
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 69883f69a8
In the features list for the X-fi cards it mentions support for 24 bit
soundfonts, and in the help files for Vienna 2.4 it says that Vienna
supports the Soundfont 2.1 format.
If you follow Creatives FAQ links, you'll end up here
http://www.soundblaster.com/soundfont/sfspec21.pdf which is a 1998
document describing the Soundfont 2.01 specification.
I believe the 2.01 spec is explicit in stating that soundfonts are 16 bit.
By now I'm sure you can see the confusion. Is there a Soundfont 2.1 Spec?
Does it support the creation of a 24 bit soundfont?"
Answer #2:
"Thank you for your reply.
Yes, there is a Soundfont 2.1 specification.
Soundfonts are not measured in bits that wave based files. Soundfonts
are just measured on their size. "
This really isn't much help at all. I guess it's time to give up?
Makes me suspicious about this "24-bit Crystalizer". I think Learjeff is right on about the hype, and that is why I'd resisted cards like this in the past. Who needs all the hocus pocus?
Learjeff, I'll try building a 24 bit font this afternoon and see what happens.
Keith
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- KVRian
- 820 posts since 15 Dec, 2004
Keith, maybe you can ask at kxproject.com, the kxdrivers developers, i guess they know better about this issue than "creative". Is not the first time that Creative advertize false 24 bit support (it happens with first audigys).
About diffrences between Hardware (sblives and family) players and soundfont players, i have made some extensive tests in the past, and have found this:
There exist some subtle diffrence in the way a soundfont is played even between soundblaster cards (awe64/sblive/audigy/etc), or the same cards using the kxproject drivers. But beyond the subtle diffrences, the most accurate soundfont players you can found out there are: SFZ and Synthfont. One issue with SFZ is that it plays soundfonts with a diffrent dinamic range than the sblive cards, but rgcaudio said that with a registry hack it can be solved, appear is related to the host you use.
VSTi Synthfont is great, but is cpu hungry and has no so good antialias engine like SFZ.
The other soundfont players, most of them synthedit based, are not really "soundfont" players, since they read the wave data, but discard the programation of the filters, that in some soundfonts can make a diffrence.
About diffrences between Hardware (sblives and family) players and soundfont players, i have made some extensive tests in the past, and have found this:
There exist some subtle diffrence in the way a soundfont is played even between soundblaster cards (awe64/sblive/audigy/etc), or the same cards using the kxproject drivers. But beyond the subtle diffrences, the most accurate soundfont players you can found out there are: SFZ and Synthfont. One issue with SFZ is that it plays soundfonts with a diffrent dinamic range than the sblive cards, but rgcaudio said that with a registry hack it can be solved, appear is related to the host you use.
VSTi Synthfont is great, but is cpu hungry and has no so good antialias engine like SFZ.
The other soundfont players, most of them synthedit based, are not really "soundfont" players, since they read the wave data, but discard the programation of the filters, that in some soundfonts can make a diffrence.
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- KVRist
- 46 posts since 2 Sep, 2005 from Calgary, Canada
Marce, thanks for your reply. Yes, I remember the controversy about the first Audigy's. I've been using sfz for a while and like it very much, too. I'll check out kxproject.com and see if I can learn anything.
Regarding soundcards, I've been using 2 Roland RPC-1's connected to my VS-2480, and a Presonus Firepod which replaced my old M-Audio 2496. I only bought the x-fi card to see about this 24 bit soundfont thing. I haven't even tried using the hardware side of the card -still using sfz at this stage.
Re my last post, here are the results:
In the absence of any meaningful help from Creative, I went ahead and made a soundfont in Vienna 2.4 from a 48/24 bit mix of a Cubase project (just the 1 sample, actually a full tune). Vienna issued no complaints about file format.
I loaded that into sfz in a new Cubase project and it plays just fine, and appears to be using 24 bits in the Ozone bit meter (although I'm not convinced that proves much).
I then went back to Vienna and exported the left side sample to a separate .wav file and imported that into Cubase, where the audio stats report it as 24 bit.
As a check I also used Vienna 2.4 to export a sample from my G1 soundfont, (made in Vienna 2.3), and imported that into the same Cubase project, where audio stats correctly report it as 16 bit.
I'm now inclined to believe that Soundfonts made with Vienna 2.4 are indeed, 24 bit.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Keith
Regarding soundcards, I've been using 2 Roland RPC-1's connected to my VS-2480, and a Presonus Firepod which replaced my old M-Audio 2496. I only bought the x-fi card to see about this 24 bit soundfont thing. I haven't even tried using the hardware side of the card -still using sfz at this stage.
Re my last post, here are the results:
In the absence of any meaningful help from Creative, I went ahead and made a soundfont in Vienna 2.4 from a 48/24 bit mix of a Cubase project (just the 1 sample, actually a full tune). Vienna issued no complaints about file format.
I loaded that into sfz in a new Cubase project and it plays just fine, and appears to be using 24 bits in the Ozone bit meter (although I'm not convinced that proves much).
I then went back to Vienna and exported the left side sample to a separate .wav file and imported that into Cubase, where the audio stats report it as 24 bit.
As a check I also used Vienna 2.4 to export a sample from my G1 soundfont, (made in Vienna 2.3), and imported that into the same Cubase project, where audio stats correctly report it as 16 bit.
I'm now inclined to believe that Soundfonts made with Vienna 2.4 are indeed, 24 bit.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Keith
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- KVRian
- 820 posts since 15 Dec, 2004
Well, if you have time, make some small soundfont with a 24bit wave on it and upload it. Im interested to try load it in my old sblive card to see what it say. (yeah, im always looking ways to hang-up my machine;)
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- KVRAF
- 7413 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK
The best bet would be to put some distinct marker data in the bottom eight bits of the sample...
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- KVRist
- 46 posts since 2 Sep, 2005 from Calgary, Canada
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- KVRist
- 46 posts since 2 Sep, 2005 from Calgary, Canada
OK Blame it on my stuffed up head.
I set up a mixdown from cubase with only the bottom 8 bits active (just some repeated C3's from my soundfont), and saved as 48/24.
Made another soundfont with that, loaded it into sfz and played back in Cubase at 0db. Got 8 bits.
Seems like it's working to me.
k
Blame it on my stuffed up head.I set up a mixdown from cubase with only the bottom 8 bits active (just some repeated C3's from my soundfont), and saved as 48/24.
Made another soundfont with that, loaded it into sfz and played back in Cubase at 0db. Got 8 bits.
Seems like it's working to me.
k
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- KVRist
- 46 posts since 2 Sep, 2005 from Calgary, Canada
Marce, see if this crashes it. You probably know the tune, and yeah, we don't play that stuff right up here...
It's about 4.5 meg -I hope that's not to big.
http://www.samplesmith.com/pub/Agua24bitSF_test.zip
Oh yeah, nothing's mapped so it's key 60, right?
k
It's about 4.5 meg -I hope that's not to big.
http://www.samplesmith.com/pub/Agua24bitSF_test.zip
Oh yeah, nothing's mapped so it's key 60, right?
k
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- KVRian
- 500 posts since 13 Oct, 2004 from Durham, NC USA
What would be really helpful for us hackers (using the old meaning) is a sf with just one sample of a very short duration, so we don't have to wade through a lot of data. The ideal sample would be a 9-bit sine or triangle wave (mono).
But I do now think it really is a 24-bit soundfont, and what you say pretty much confirms it.
Hi Marce!
Cheers
Jeff
But I do now think it really is a 24-bit soundfont, and what you say pretty much confirms it.
Hi Marce!
Cheers
Jeff