Im agnostic, can I use your synth?

[bduffy]

Deuteronomy 17
17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

I promised I would stay out of this one - but here goes.....

The quote above is from the Old Testament, 'the Law'. Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Here's the quote from Matthew 5:17, Jesus words, not mine:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The Old Testament was about how to get to heaven by following a quite complicated set of laws, some of which are admittedly pretty extreme - like the one you've shown above.

By fulfilling those laws, Jesus removed quite a bit of the obligation to following those laws and certainly set an example against many of them - for which the religious establishment were constantly on his case for; whether it was healing somebody on the Sabbath (supposedly 'doing work' and not keeping it holy) or his disciples not ceremoniously washing their hands before eating, or eating at the home of a tax collector, etc.

It's been said that the etymology of the word 'Christian' can mean a few things: 1. Imitator of Christ, or 2. 'Little' Christ, or 3. Follower of Christ.

There is no written record of Christ stoning anyone - in fact he saved at least one woman from suffering that death.

The point is, that if you are going to make claims about what Christians are supposed to do and not do, at least get the facts straight. Christians are not supposed to kill non-Christians.

-Scott

Well done. I'm afraid, as is always the case when confronting Christianity, that I am dealing with people who know the thing inside and out - including the confusing ways it justifies glaring contradictions - and alas, I'm at a disadvantage without more research materials available to me. I would need a lot more explanation than that to reconcile it too: abolish which ones? all of them? only the nasty ones?

You're right, though, perhaps I'm ill equipped to be jumping in without my research material, especially if I'm going to get quotes wrong. I apologize for that. I have further evidence, but not being at home, I have to rely on web sources, which can't be fully trusted.

[dreamtheater]

Although I know that won't be an answer you'll accept or understand, this belongs clearly to the old covenant. Of course, this passage sounds horrible to a reader nowadays. Don't ask me why Israel had these kind of laws, I don't know it, though many of the strange sounding laws have a deeper meaning (prophecies, parables, examples) worth thinking about. I don't claim to understand every word of the bible, still I'm sure it contains things God wanted man to know, do and think about.
The new covenant (which Christians commit themselves to) is governed by different rules. A good example: "A new command I give you: Love one another." (John 13,34)

[Left Headphone]

Two things:
1. Deuteronomy talks about the Law of Moses. Christians are under Grace and Truth which Jesus Christ established.

2. The "covenant" was with the Hebrews only. So, any Hebrew that committed a "wicked thing" was to be stone.

So, Christians practice the teachings of Christ (The New Testament) and some Jews still practice the Law of Moses (The Old Testament).

Now, find in the New Testament where Jesus Christ told his followers to "kill the non believer." You will not find it unless you write it in there yourself.

[djsubject]

i love this place

just like the outside world, everybody is different

[bduffy]

Two things:
1. Deuteronomy talks about the Law of Moses. Christians are under Grace and Truth which Jesus Christ established.

2. The "covenant" was with the Hebrews only. So, any Hebrew that committed a "wicked thing" was to be stone.

So, Christians practice the teachings of Christ (The New Testament) and some Jews still practice the Law of Moses (The Old Testament).

Now, find in the New Testament where Jesus Christ told his followers to "kill the non believer."

Oooohoooooooooh....I just saw something on this. Can I get back to you?

[Left Headphone]

Ok... Waiting..........

[dr. orange]

I want to go to hell!!

[dreamtheater]

that is a misquote (2 post above) of Mark 6:11, btw?

That _is_ a misquote just to have that cleared - Mark 6,11 reads:

And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them.

But anyway, as I said before, I have to accept that people make fun of Christians (and that's one of the better things of the unedifying things that Christians have to deal with ;o) ).

If anybody has interest in personal communication about this topic - my address is dreamtheater at uboot dot com.

I'm outta here!

[SaviorNeeded]

Wheeee! A discussion! Here's a tip for you who are interested in religious discussions on KVR (I'm not, usually): The Old Testament rules concerning who to put to death and whatnot were intended for the government that God was telling Moses how to set up. These rules were in no way intended for the individual. Jesus, on the other hand, was addressing individuals when he spoke about turning the other cheek, etc. In other words, the government was given the right to execute, the individual never was. In God's view, I have a right to call the cops (representing the government) on the law-breaker next door--I do not have the right to shoot him. FWIW.

Tom

[ouroboros]

Wheeee! A discussion! Here's a tip for you who are interested in religious discussions on KVR (I'm not, usually): The Old Testament rules concerning who to put to death and whatnot were intended for the government that God was telling Moses how to set up. These rules were in no way intended for the individual. Jesus, on the other hand, was addressing individuals when he spoke about turning the other cheek, etc. In other words, the government was given the right to execute, the individual never was. In God's view, I have a right to call the cops (representing the government) on the law-breaker next door--I do not have the right to shoot him. FWIW.

Tom

hey that's a very Lutheran view for a US citizen, these days!
(that's neither an endorsement or a dig, just an observation )

[bduffy]

Ok... Waiting..........

I'll start something in HPC when I have more. I get really mixed messages about the "Old Law-New Law" thing, especially when everyone's always going on about the 10 Commandments, which is the Old Law. But clearly, you guys got it all worked out.

But don't think for a second I'm "making fun" of anyone; I'm struggling to understand this all-powerful force in our societies that, to me, just doesn't make sense.

Anyway, I'll HPC if I think I can get something you guys won't dismiss in a heartbeat; dreamtheater, I'm contacting you. I do really want to explore these things, atheist or not.

[telephone]

Although I know that won't be an answer you'll accept or understand, this belongs clearly to the old covenant. Of course, this passage sounds horrible to a reader nowadays. Don't ask me why Israel had these kind of laws, I don't know it, though many of the strange sounding laws have a deeper meaning (prophecies, parables, examples) worth thinking about. I don't claim to understand every word of the bible, still I'm sure it contains things God wanted man to know, do and think about.
The new covenant (which Christians commit themselves to) is governed by different rules. A good example: "A new command I give you: Love one another." (John 13,34)

God does not know anything about love! He is just a power, like a tsunami or like cathrina or like a neutron bomb or like love or like making love or like killing each other or like new born childs or like an animal or like a human or like a dolphin or like anything which you can not understand. He just does not make any distinction between whatever is here on earth because he is simply not interested in the f**king small problems of humankind. He simply excists but does not belief in what we belief we think what god is like. Amen.

[Rabid]

Gezzzz. This tired subject again?

I feel like I am in junior high again, as it seems many people posting here must be. The arguments here have about as much credit as a 12 year old talking about sex. I'm sure you can find articles on the web about sex, but let me tell you, it is not the same and experience. Read all you want and you still will not know what you are talking about. Not until you grow up and experience it for yourself.

[bduffy]

And thanks for clearing up the Deuteronomy business, guys. I will re-check my research.

[bduffy]

Gezzzz. This tired subject again?

I feel like I am in junior high again, as it seems many people posting here must be. The arguments here have about as much credit as a 12 year old talking about sex. I'm sure you can find articles on that web about sex, but let me tell you, it is not the same and you still will not know what you are talking about. Not until you grow up and experience it for yourself.

It's my first time...