ableton live5 compared to fls6xxl?

[headquest]

my work here is done ...

slainte rob

If taking a pop at me was your work, then I guess so, although that would be pretty sad mate

Until you have commented on the relative merits of FL and Live your work is not in fact done

[pHz]

my work here is done ...
slainte rob

If taking a pop at me was your work, then I guess so, although that would be pretty sad mate

taking a pop you as work ??? no ... i do that (heehee) purely for fun !!!

Until you have commented on the relative merits of FL and Live your work is not in fact done

good point ... well ... off the top of my head ... they ARE very different apps with IMHO very different fundamental approaches and i own them both (although to be fair fl-studio hasnt been installed here for a while and i only briefly tried the latest version to see what was new) ...

... both could be deemed pattern-based sequencers but take a slightly different approach to that with fl-studio being a more 'traditional' pattern sequencer (ie - pre-programming patterns that you use as the building blocks of a track) whereas live uses patterns in a more improvisational way and without a conventional 'playlist' ...

... the problem i had with fl-studio (apart from its handling of plugin directories which was the final reason i ditched it as a main sequencer) was that its REALLY obvious that its grown from a fairly streamlined app into something of a monster and this has had a detrimental effect on its workflow and GUI ... new features have been more 'tacked-on' than properly integrated in many cases and that results for me in counter-intuitive ways to access some features etc ...

... live on the other hand has always placed GUI and workflow on an equal footing with features which means that MOST things are easily accessible and useable (now ableton have finally realised that right-click context menus are a GOOD thing !!! ) ... personally i have a few concerns that ableton might be slightly losing sight of where theyre going with live (one of the reasons i dont use live5 as much as i did 4 is that for me it seems less focussed in its purpose than previous versions did) ... its almost that they could split live into 2 seperate products (one being live3 + current MIDI / VST tools focussed on playing and composing and one thats a fully-fledged DAW) ... at the moment for me live5 falls between those two stools and is the weaker for it IMHO ...

... both are VERY powerful sequencers capable of giving good results if learned properly and fed with decent ideas ... it boils down to the cop-out (but valid nonetheless) answer of trying demos and sussing out which sequencer suits an individuals workflow best ... of the 2 it turned out for me that live (versions 3 and 4 anyway) matched me best for certain tasks and when im in certain moods but i still float between this / T2 / energyXT / audiomulch depending in what i want to do ...

T2 - quick sketchpad for ideas (no other mainstream sequencer puts as little between you and the music and the left-right signal flow paradigm is still the best GUI concept on the market IMHO) and easy mixing of tracks rendered from other sequencers ... also use it for the little bits of multitrack recording ive done ... what stops it being my only sequencer ??? ... MIDI side is still weak ...

energyXT - increasingly my 'go to' sequencer ... ive been with jorgen since the old massiva days and just like the way he does things ... yeah its quirky and inconsistent in some of its workflow but is capable of things that no other sequencer is without external plugins ... mixes pattern-based and linear approaches in a very (for me) intuitive way and is adding some interesting composing on the fly tools (ie - live-like) in version 2 AFAICT ...

live5 - awesome piece of technical work and is great for stuff that requires a lot of audio processing ... also strong for throwing ideas around when you dont have a concrete structure in mind for what you want to do ... feeling a little sluggish for me with the current version but i cant bring myself to dump it completely yet ...

audiomulch - when i just want to make tweaky noise ... in its way as good a tool for audio-based improvisation as live but aiming at a COMPLETELY different target market ...

slainte rob

[diverdee]

I don't know about audiomulch, but your little precis of live, T2 & Ext fair hits the nail on the head.
Those three (I feel) have reaised the bar as far as daws are concerned.
I personally love live, but I love the idea/potential of T2 & have an ongoing interest in what happens with Ext.
I may have to investigate Ext more, to see how it integrates with live.
I miss tracktions racks, wish Live had them (it's heading that way with device chains I suppose) Ext would give me some of that functionality (only problem is I wouldn't be able to use Live's native fx, which I really like).

[pHz]

sadly there were a (VERY) few issues when working with eXT inside live (check the eXT forum for details) ... but jorgen and the abes are in contact and have ironed the major ones out with the others being worked on from both ends AFAICT ...

slainte rob

(edited for typos)

[diverdee]

Yeah - I followed those issues, which I beieve are resolved now.
With the abes on one side & that jorgen guy on the other it was a safe bet they'd get sorted fairly quickly.
I may have a play with it if those issues are fully resolved, just to see how the external automation works when Ext is used as a modular rack within live.

[headquest]

Cool. Jorgen - like the Abes (and like Jules in the past) - is the very model of a responsive developer. XT2 looks very exciting and I can hardly wait to try it out in conjunction with Live and - even more so - Sonar (which has far less flexible routing than Live).

[ModuLR]

Phz, we use the same programs.. hehe

Hence my surprise at him taking that sideways swipe for which he offered no substance at all (and still hasn't). I guess that he has now explained that it was because he doesn't understand my position (or perhaps respect me personally, maybe because of some prior offense on my part?)

I have not explained that it's because I don't understand your position.. nor anything to do with respect. You've got my respect.. and I hear you loud and clear. I happen not to agree with you. It's that simple. For some reason you keep asking me to provide backup for my comment... and I have repeatedly said read the live forum. I have made no false statement. But, again.. you choose to ignore it... maybe because Live is working for you. Well guess what? for some others it's not working well, and hasn't for over 7 months! And for those people, they might agree with my comment... (a comment which on top of all this had a on it, which should have lessened it's implied weight).

you've twisted this into something else all on your own headquest... and with regards to respect... let's remember who refered to who as a troll...

I'm just calling you out because there is an underlying contradiction that drives me nuts...

[headquest]

For some reason you keep asking me to provide backup for my comment... and I have repeatedly said read the live forum.

I do read it, and as I explained in detail, I have seen similar comments - from the same people - over a considerable period of time. Years. That's just how the Ableton forum is (and has been much commented on, as I'm sure you know full well).

Yes, of course there are people who have legitimate issues with Live (as I did myself with version 4). But Ableton have a decent bug reporting forum (unlike some others), do proper public beta testing to ensure compatibility with as many systems as possible (again, unlike some others), and deal with those issues to the best of their ability and as quickly as possible.

I have made no false statement. But, again.. you choose to ignore it...

No, with respect I think you are ignoring the lengthy post I made explaining in more detail my own experience of 1) genuine personal assistance and help from Ableton and 2) rudeness from Mackie (both their personal staff were rude and unhelful to me - as has been much commented on both here on the RMS forum and on their own forum, as again I'm sure you know - and their users).

Given that ALL software goes through buggy phases, the response of the developers is in my view the most important thing to bear in mind when selecting software and recommending it to others. Dude, I've learnt this lesson the VERY hard way, and that's why I still refer to my experiences when seeking, quite genuinely, to give helpful advice to others.

maybe because Live is working for you.

No, it's because Ableton are working for me, and not off on some unspecified business tangent of their own...

Well guess what? for some others it's not working well, and hasn't for over 7 months! And for those people, they might agree with my comment...

Of course they would, and that's another reason why I am trying to be helpful towards other Ableton users (such as Raw Theory, who I notice you didn;t offer any advice to) rather than simply make glib, dismissive and unsupported, snide comments, as you did

and with regards to respect... let's remember who refered to who as a troll...

Seriously ModuLR, I have great respect for you, and I think I have mentioned that fairly prominently right here in this thread (even though you have done nothing in this thread to merit my compliments)...

...but I just don't understand your behaviour in this instance. In the past I have witnessed you go out of your way to concilliatory, helpful to others, and avoid "host war" type posts. But in this thread you made unsupported comments about (refering to their forum is nuts and you know it - check out the gazillion bug reports on the Tracktion forum and then start trying to apply just a little consistency, OK?) and seem to be going out of your way to cause offense (and succeed).

I'm just calling you out because there is an underlying contradiction that drives me nuts...

I went to considerable lengths to explain the fact that I do understand why you think there is an apparent contradiction but why - in fact - there isn't one at all. Ableton's behavior to their customers and Mackie are simply very different, so it is false and misleading to suggest that they are the same/worthy of comparisson.

It seems to me that you (like pHz it seems, who is also normally a really decent guy ) are going out of your way to "call me out" because you have some kind of personal deal going on here. Considering the substantial compliments I have paid you in this and many previous threads I have no idea what your present problem is. It seems extraordinary that a thread that started as an attempt to genuinely be helpful to the OP has been taken so way off track because the Tracktion police take such extreeme exception to the merest criticism of their favourite software. Just bizarre.

[pHz]

It seems to me that you (like pHz it seems, who is also normally a really decent guy ) are going out of your way to "call me out" because you have some kind of personal deal going on here. Considering the substantial compliments I have paid you in this and many previous threads I have no idea what your present problem is. It seems extraordinary that a thread that started as an attempt to genuinely be helpful to the OP has been taken so way off track because the Tracktion police take such extreeme exception to the merest criticism of their favourite software. Just bizarre.

sorry mate ... i was with you until this post ...

slainte rob

[pHz]

Phz, we use the same programs.. hehe

oddly ... that doesnt surpirse me TOO much ...

I'm just calling you out because there is an underlying contradiction that drives me nuts...

not saying i fully agree with this ... but i UNDERSTAND the sentiment ...

slainte rob

[Lunch Money]

headquest, since you've been out of the Tracktion loop, you're obviously unaware of the HUGE responsiveness of Mackie, particularly as of late. You may have been under the illusion, like many others (and it WAS an illusion), that Mackie was unresponsive, and I guess I can't blame you-- they don't like to post publicly about every single move they make and every single thing they do.

But there have been fixes in some cases within a few days. Major bugfixes, sometimes compiled before release, take longer due to the "compiling" nature; however, the developer(s) work on them every day and consistently, almost always with an eye to their two forums.

It's very out of date to maintain that Mackie is unresponsive. It's simply not true. Where once it wasn't true and at least I couldn't blame you for the misconception (Mackie peeps lurking behind the scenes and not just posting into a thread to "prove" that they're working); now it's simply not holding up as evidence anymore.

Greg

[opia]

Host wars! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Live turns it into sculpting clay

Primarily: Live's stretching algo is just a granular stretch. FL's elastique IS better sounding, it just takes longer. If you want the grainy, stuttery, all-over-the-place effects, you just right-click->Add to Granulizer channel in FL. Instant noise.

But the whole point is that, until you've used Melodyne, you have NO IDEA what it means to sculpt with audio. A granulizer stretch? that's no sculpture, mate.

then perhaps it's time for me to check in on melodyne

still I think live handles audio better than FL
which has nothing close to the warp points in Live
you get 5 different warp modes in Live so it's not all that shabby

sorry
I couldn't help getting caught up in this host war seeing as I recently wiped FL from my HD after checking out the version 6 update
and seeing that there still wasn't anything to lure back into using it even remotely as much as Orion (ooh he said that name) or Live

[diverdee]

In order for it to be classed as that name you have to pronounce it ORION (it helps if you're wearing oakleys whilst you say it)

[ModuLR]

Yes, of course there are people who have legitimate issues with Live (as I did myself with version 4). But Ableton have a decent bug reporting forum (unlike some others), do proper public beta testing to ensure compatibility with as many systems as possible (again, unlike some others), and deal with those issues to the best of their ability and as quickly as possible.

<snip> ....I think you are ignoring the lengthy post I made explaining in more detail my own experience of 1) genuine personal assistance and help from Ableton and 2) rudeness from Mackie (both their personal staff were rude and unhelful to me - as has been much commented on both here on the RMS forum and on their own forum, as again I'm sure you know - and their users).

That fine, I like Ableton's format at well... however, the RMS forum has been an extremely calm place for quite awhile. The chaos with the release of T2 subsided long ago. However, what does my original comment have to do with tracktion?

Of course they would, and that's another reason why I am trying to be helpful towards other Ableton users (such as Raw Theory, who I notice you didn;t offer any advice to) rather than simply make glib, dismissive and unsupported, snide comments, as you did

I made one single comment which set you off. My comment was in response to you... let's revist that...

Let's hope that as of version 6, Acid will also be able to run without crashing, host VSTs properly, and begin to reverse the quite shocking/appalling fall from glory that it has suffered since Sony bought it.

to which I samply said...

some would argue the same for Live5... touche!:hihi:

which for whatever reason that set you off the deep end. So it's not ok to make my comment after you made very clear statements against Acid? My comment suggested "hey, look in your own backyard... there are some folks who could say the same thing about Live5" then down the line, you reveal the following....

Actually you are wrong there. I was into Acid prior to Live 2 / Tracktion / etc. I did demo version 5 seriously, but still found the paradigm of only being able to use a single loop on each track very limiting. Also in version 5 many of my VSTs didn't show up, the MIDI was very lacking compared to others, automation non existant, etc. I guess my problems with it were not so much bugs as poor feature implementation. It will be interesting to see version 6 (which I shall also demo, following my long time Acid interest) but as they add more features the simple interfface seems to get increasingly crowded. The opposite of Tracktion/Live approach of having complex features but an easy interface. Time will tell!

So basically, you admit your problem with Acid was primarily a feature set thing, not a bug thing...

...but I just don't understand your behaviour in this instance. In the past I have witnessed you go out of your way to concilliatory, helpful to others, and avoid "host war" type posts. But in this thread you made unsupported comments about (refering to their forum is nuts and you know it - check out the gazillion bug reports on the Tracktion forum and then start trying to apply just a little consistency, OK?) and seem to be going out of your way to cause offense (and succeed).

this has nothing to do with host wars... this has to do with your reaction to my simple comment. I have not made a single statement that says one thing is better than the next.

I went to considerable lengths to explain the fact that I do understand why you think there is an apparent contradiction but why - in fact - there isn't one at all. Ableton's behavior to their customers and Mackie are simply very different, so it is false and misleading to suggest that they are the same/worthy of comparisson.

Once again, did I ever mention Mackie? I was talking to you about Acid5.. You consistantly bring up the "Tracktion" thing, not me. The only tracktion comment I made is that you tend to play the victim role with regards to Tracktion... suggesting that whent the shoe is on the other foot, things tend to switch. If that offended you, I appologize.

It seems to me that you (like pHz it seems, who is also normally a really decent guy ) are going out of your way to "call me out" because you have some kind of personal deal going on here. Considering the substantial compliments I have paid you in this and many previous threads I have no idea what your present problem is. It seems extraordinary that a thread that started as an attempt to genuinely be helpful to the OP has been taken so way off track because the Tracktion police take such extreeme exception to the merest criticism of their favourite software. Just bizarre.

It's nothing personal.. but once again you are outright refering me to as the Tracktion police... when the source of my comment was based on your reference to Acid. So really, what are you on about? yes, it is just bizarre.

[RawTheory]

Okay, if you had your ASIO settings correct (as per the walkthrough I gave on page 4) you would get radically lower latency than this. You need to go back and configure the hardware (in its own setup software) and then reopen Live, select ASIO from the dropdown list, and that should solve it. With your hardware over USB I should have thought you could get the combined latency figure to 10ms or below.

Well im using a Digi 002 and its Firewire based with no setup software outside of ProTools itself. I've opened a thread in the Ableton forum and I got a response from a user that is having the same problems im having with his Digi 002 and its latency with Live.
Qoute from bildeaux:
"Same thing here. Mac Powerbook with 2gig ram, 1.67 Ghz. The 002 is unusable to record with in Live. I have to switch to one of my motu cards to get anything reasonable."
If this is the cases it totally blows to have to buy a new audio interface to get Live to work properly especially when its an expensive as hell Digi 002....totally crappy