ableton live5 compared to fls6xxl?

[Synthbuilder]

For Rawtheory:

If you have a PC running XP, you can download Digidesign's ASIO driver. This should allow some control over buffer settings and hence latency.

I'm not familiar with Digi's ASIO driver but you should be getting way better than 23mS from it.

http://www.digidesign.com/download/asio/

[headquest]

Well im using a Digi 002 and its Firewire based with no setup software outside of ProTools itself. I've opened a thread in the Ableton forum and I got a response from a user that is having the same problems im having with his Digi 002 and its latency with Live.
Qoute from bildeaux:
"Same thing here. Mac Powerbook with 2gig ram, 1.67 Ghz. The 002 is unusable to record with in Live. I have to switch to one of my motu cards to get anything reasonable."
If this is the cases it totally blows to have to buy a new audio interface to get Live to work properly especially when its an expensive as hell Digi 002....totally crappy

Okay, I see your thread there and the first thing to say is, how nice it is to see that one of Ableton's top software support guts has replied in person within just a few hours, even though it's the weekend!

That really is the point I've been trying to make, and illustrates the fantastic support that Ableton offer far more succingctly than any long involved arguements here possibly could! And I'm sure Alex will sort you out!

Secondly, are you on a Mac, then? If so substitute "Core Audio" for ASIO in our previous attempts to help. WIth Core Audio or ASIO drivers you should get very low latency.

But I'll bow out on this one - let Alex sort you out! The guy's a plain genius.

[headquest]

headquest, since you've been out of the Tracktion loop, you're obviously unaware of the HUGE responsiveness of Mackie, particularly as of late. You may have been under the illusion, like many others (and it WAS an illusion), that Mackie was unresponsive, and I guess I can't blame you-- they don't like to post publicly about every single move they make and every single thing they do.

By responsive I wasn't particularly refering to their post count on the forum . What I mean is their interest/ability/speed at fixing bugs and other issues adversely effecting users.

But there have been fixes in some cases within a few days. Major bugfixes, sometimes compiled before release, take longer due to the "compiling" nature; however, the developer(s) work on them every day and consistently, almost always with an eye to their two forums.

That's good to hear, although I can't say I've found my email inbox regularly receiving bug fix notices from Mackie. I am still a registered user! I did get a message once so far this year (quite recently) and I didn't yet download it - perhaps I should.

Are you saying that they have finally fixed the MIDI note dropping bug, Rewire timing issues, GUI slowdown issues, etc? If so that is certainly good news.

It's very out of date to maintain that Mackie is unresponsive. It's simply not true. Where once it wasn't true and at least I couldn't blame you for the misconception (Mackie peeps lurking behind the scenes and not just posting into a thread to "prove" that they're working); now it's simply not holding up as evidence anymore.

Greg

Cheers for the heads up Greg. Glad to hear these things are finally getting sorted. It's been an incredibly long wait (more than 3 years with some of those bugs), so I guess you must all be much happier now.

[headquest]

however, the RMS forum has been an extremely calm place for quite awhile. The chaos with the release of T2 subsided long ago.

That's good news. I occasionally pop in as a "reader" and did notice some agro when Mackie finally released their long-promised effects and made them available to boxed-version users only. Download customers couldn't even buy them, right? And I also read complaints there about the customer support telephone people at Mackie, which didn't suprise me at all.

But I'm glad to hear things are generally better.

So basically, you admit your problem with Acid was primarily a feature set thing, not a bug thing...

Either way the demo didn't work well. As I said elsewhere many of the VSTs in my folder didn't show up. Call it poor implementation or a bug - I'm not a programmer like you - but that was my experience.

I have not made a single statement that says one thing is better than the next.

Indeed - even though that was the actual subject of the thread

If that offended you, I appologize.

Accepted. And if your off topic posts - followed by the appearance of the Tracktion beta testing team in force to put me down - were not intended as a personal attack then I appologise for taking them that way.

[AD80]

Oh boy, Headquest is at it again.

Hay did you know its possible to talk about Live without mentioning Tracktion? Just letting you know in case you didn't realise. They added that extra feature in version 5. That should save you a lot of typing. Wouldn't want you to get carpeltunnel syndrome or anything like that.

Take a wild guess at who was the first person to bring up Tracktion (for no reason other than to take cheap shots as usual) ....Yup that's right.

The only music software that ever gave me serious stability problems was Tracktion 2

That's pretty interesting because if you look on the front page of the RMS forum right now you will see exactly ZERO posts claiming any stability problems. NOT EVEN ONE. Seems to me if a lot of people were having serious stability problems, it would show up on the forums.

Its also interesting considering I've been using Tracktion for 2 years and have had exactly 1 crash (which was plug-in related not Tracktion).

So maybe your particular computer is specially built for Ableton Live. Maybe the Live developers called your computer company and worked with them to make sure it would never crash. Those guys are great.

I think that is very different from the droves who have completely given up on Acid (or Tracktion) over recent years.

So Sony and Mackie both gave you their sales records huh. You're more important than I thought. Either that or you're just using imaginary data like you usually do just to slagg off Tracktion. One of those two.

I guarantee you theres atleast 100 times more Tracktion users now, than there was when you used it.

What I'm I basing that on? The same data you're using..... NOTHING.

Sincerely Yours,
Your friendly neighborhood Tracktion Police

[headquest]

And here comes the next panda car ...

If you read the whole thread you'll notice that I didn't mention T at all until one of Tracktion's beta testers appeared on the scene and tried to make me look stupid for explaining one of Live's more interesting features.

Within a short while two more of the hard-core Tracktion beta tesers arrived on the "scene of the crime" to continue their playground bully-boy thing, and now here you are too. Great.

You were without doubt the rudest bully-boy in the Tracktion playground, so I guess you guys win and I'm outta here.

[pHz]

And here comes the next panda car ...
If you read the whole thread you'll notice that I didn't mention T at all until one of Tracktion's beta testers appeared on the scene and tried to make me look stupid for explaining one of Live's more interesting features.

having just read bits of the thread before i joined in i dont see modulrs 'touche' comment as any such thing ... my perception of it was that he was jokingly pointing out there is always more than just one opinion / 'truth' in any given situation (especially when talking about something as subjective as why people choose a piece of software that gives them a creative outlet) ... if youre talking about a different comment modulr made then i apologise for getting the wrong end of the stick ...

Within a short while two more of the hard-core Tracktion beta tesers arrived on the "scene of the crime" to continue their playground bully-boy thing, and now here you are too. Great.

quite aside from the fact ive already tried to explain my reasons for 'calling you out' i also immediately and openly stated my 'official' connection to T2 BUT (and believe it or not) my responses were made as a happy user rather than a tester (as such i am WELL aware of the issues people have or havent had with T2 and the way mackie have or havent dealt with them) and i hope you see i have enough integrity to be able to separate out the two things ... had ANY OTHER app (including live) i use and enjoy been dragged into a thread i was watching where it didnt belong merely for the sake of attacking it (or its producer - and i do understand that distinction youve made in some of your posts here) i would have reacted in the same way so the 'hardcore beta tester bully boy' thing wont wash here ...

You were without doubt the rudest bully-boy in the Tracktion playground, so I guess you guys win and I'm outta here.

...

slainte rob

[headquest]

having just read bits of the thread before i joined in i dont see modulrs 'touche' comment as any such thing ... my perception of it was that he was jokingly pointing out there is always more than just one opinion / 'truth' in any given situation (especially when talking about something as subjective as why people choose a piece of software that gives them a creative outlet) ... if youre talking about a different comment modulr made then i apologise for getting the wrong end of the stick ...

It could certainly have remained a brief, even humerous, exchange between me and ModuLR. The odd thing was that he appeared introducing a seperate piece of software, apparently to show me up in some way, and didn't mention FL or Live, the subject of the thread. Threads on any forum have a header/subject for a reason

My glib remark about Acid was made as a quip in response, and his touche could indeed have been a humerous return were it not for the complete inappropriateness of implying Ableton might provide support like Sony's famously poor support in the past. That impression certainly needed correcting. But there it could have remained. And I have aplogised on the off chance that I misinterpretted his intentions...

BUT... then you, Lunch Money and now AD80 all piled in. AD80's personal attacks on me (and in fact anyone else who specifically mentioned moving to Ableton) over on the RMS forum were particularly unpleasant and totally unecessary, and he has been continuing them on KVR ever since I stopped posting on the RMS forum.

It's not really surprising that others have commented on the way you guys act like the Tracktion Police, because you always seem to show up simultaneously in threads that have nothing to do with Tracktion (but where somebody has dared to criticise it, even in passing as I VERY BRIEFLY did here). Sorry officer, I didn't realise I was driving at 34mph

In your case, sure you are a Live user, so it's understandable you contributing on this thread. Same goes for ModuLR it turns out (although he still hasn't made a post here that's relevant to the thread title...). But within moments of your appearance Lunch Money - who doesn't use either FL or Ableton, and who lives on the other side of the world from you - also appeared alongside you. What/who brought him to the thread at exactly that moment?

Or AD80 for that matter... given how much he appears to have it in for Live and its users, there can be only one reason for his appearance.

the 'hardcore beta tester bully boy' thing wont wash here ...

It seems to be a collective rather than personal thing you guys do. But denying that this happens on a pretty regular basis doesn't wash here

[ModuLR]

I occasionally pop by as a reader only and cetainly it's improved. I did notice though that there was a recent outburst of anger when Mackie released their long-promised T2 effects plugins that they were gifts to boxed version customers, while download customers not only didn't get them... they couldn't even buy them! Very odd marketing decision, but up to them how they treat customers I suppose. Also I've seen some threads there strongly criticising Mackie's customer telephone support line. Apparently they're rude, according to some people.

Forums in general are prone to outbursts... you've even acknowledged this yourself. But again, it has nothing to do with my original point.

Perhaps I misconstrued both your intention - and the immediate appearance of pHz and Lunch Money. Let's unravel it:

1) This is a thread about FL and Live. People asking for advice/recommendations
2) I tried to give both, including a lengthy explanation of one of Live's cooler features, hoping that people would be helped.
3) You jumped in with a comment about a different programme, not the subject of the thread.

stop right there... Look at #3.

Let me clear that up real quick with this quote...

In Live 5 you can actually Groove Quantise AUDIO [by copying and pasting warp markers from one complete audio track to another] - something I am not aware that any other programme can do! (For full information see the recent tutorial on the subject in Sound on Sound - or ask and I'll explain more!)

So for MIDI you could simply bounce to audio and then Groove Quantise.

Once again, this is very much the sort of thing that makes Ableton a unique and very special piece of music software that stands out from not only FL, but from all the rest! Cool Very Happy

But yes, a direct MIDI groove quantise would also be nice.

Misinformation. I mentioned acid because you were suggesting that said feature was unique to Live. You opened this up to other software with that comment. Your comment is flat out false, so I brought to your attention that it's not a Live only thing. It's really that simple. There was not a single tracktion related comment at that point.

btw, EXT can groove quantize audio and midi as well...

4) Neither then, nor since, have you attempted to address the main topic of the thread, help the OP, or help any of the other people in the thread that have asked questions or advice about ABleton or FL.

Nor would I have said anything further if you didn't drag my name into this with comments such as...

Nobody should be fooled by ModuLR's nonsense about Live being unstable/buggy. All software has occasional bugs and issues. The real issue is: What support do the developers give and how quickly do they fix problems that occur?

Goaded by ModuLR's bizaare and misleading swipe at Ableton, in fact (read back). Why do some Tracktion guys still feel a need to attack Ableton at every opportunity? I will always counter such nonsense because it is not only immature, but also misleading to others. I know that several people on the RMS forum very publically switched to Ableton, but it's still truly odd the extent that Ableton are slagged off on the RMS forum Confused Talk about defensive!

But I agree, not the thread for it Wink . As I said to Rob, if ModuLR hadn't carried over the highly misleading anti-Ableton thing into this thread I wouldn't have responded in kind.

I think we're on the same page Rob Wink . That's exactly why I felt ModuLR's attempt at likening Ableton's stability/support to Sony Acid needed to be balanced out. It was a pretty offensive and quite off-the-wall suggestion given Acid's current low reputation. As already stated, I have used the last four versions of Ableton Live without a single crash... I doubt many could say that about the last four versions of Acid. And ModuLR is somebody whose opinions I had previously really respected. It's really not like him to be deliberately misleading (which I'm sure he was) or be a troll about other people's software choices. Strange. Confused I guess perhaps people just change Shrug

So in the middle of page 2, I made a simple comment... and by page 5, you had written all of the above.. without ONE single comment from me. Go back and read it for yourself. Ultimately ending it by refering to me as a troll... all of that, without one single comment from me. This is why I'm going on about this... You literally drug me into this with your own "tracktion" bias that I was trying to do Live in. really.. who is being the "defensive" fanboy here? yet you can trash Acid5, when it's really not the grim picture you painted. Then on top of that you go victim and start playing the pity card... well I'm not going for it. I didn't do anything wrong. I stand by what I said.. as it had nothing to do with getting on people for their software choices.

5) It appeared that your comment was intended to "show me up" or "call me out".

No, my original comment was to point out that you were wrong in making your claim, after which you slammed Acid... and I suggested to look at the state of Live5.. as everyone is not happy with it. Again.. with a attached! meaning that there is truth in it, but nothing too serious. That's it.

6) Within a short time your fellow Tracktion beta testers pHz and Lunch Money appeared and the three of you took over the thread defending Tracktion and trying your combined hardest to "call me out".

Guess who mentioned Tracktion first? you! Look below...

Certainly bugs occur in Ableton. But they release patches roughtly every two-to-three months, all year, every year. Occasionally you do get people having tantrums on their forum and claiming they are leaving for another programme (as with most programmes it seems). But usually you see the same person back a few weeks later saying that Live is, after all, the best thing since sliced bread. I think that is very different from the droves who have completely given up on Acid (or Tracktion) over recent years.

and you really didn't expect at least one tracktion head to respond to that kinda statement? you brought that on yourself... stop with the victim role please.

7) With the exception of Rob when prompted, who answered the OP, your only purpose in this thread has been to discredit me.

My purpose was to correct you on a false claim you made. Afterwhich, you blew this all out of proportion and got defensive over basically being wrong.

As you know I was hounded out of the RMS forum for daring to be unhappy with Tracktion. Several other users who are friends also felt the same way about what took place on the RMS forum last year (and which you yourself refered to above). Since then a few Tracktion users have often continued to put me down and try to make my opinions look stupid here on the main KVR forum. This thread is but the latest example of this. You guys no doubt think that I provoke this by continuing to dare to criticise Tracktion. Generally though I only do so mildly, or in passing, as part of giving general advice. It is only when the T Police (not my phrase, by the way) show up that the arguement escalates to a point where I start to list the many faults with T2.

This has been noted and commented on by several other KVR users. Within the last 24 hours I have received 3 PMs and two emails on my home account from other people here, basically saying: "Oh no, not again... when will they leave you alone?" Having said all that, you have not previously, personally been a part of this unfortunate behavioural trend. So I may well have misconstrued your intentions here, and if so I happily appologise.

Acid had nothing to do with the thread. As I already showed, you only joined in this thread to put me down. You are not here to help the OP.

Your simply comment was off topic, and appeared to be the latest in a long line of Tracktion suers' attempts to make me look stupid.

the above is the typical tracktion shut me out routine.. they are ganging up on me... but it really has nothing to do with this other than playing the sympathy card. All of this revolves around your feelings that certain Tracktion users are out to get you (still)... and it demonstrates that when a someone such as myself (a more vocal tracktion user) says the slightest thing against Live (of which I am a user as well)... you demonstrate behavior that isn't any different than undeniable fanboyism yourself. So put on your cape, as you will rightously protect Live from any falsehoods and at the same paint rosey pictures.

[pHz]

It's not really surprising that others have commented on the way you guys act like the Tracktion Police, because you always seem to show up simultaneously in threads that have nothing to do with Tracktion (but where somebody has dared to criticise it, even in passing as I VERY BRIEFLY did here). Sorry officer, I didn't realise I was driving at 34mph

conversely (and more for the sake of debate than anything personal) ... you would NEVER show up in a hosts thread here where live had not yet been mentioned just to promote it ??? ... its understandable that people want to promote / support / defend the tools they use and WILL react to what they perceive as an irrelevant and (in context) unwarranted slight on it whether they carry a 'badge' or not ...

It seems to be a collective rather than personal thing you guys do. But denying that this happens on a pretty regular basis doesn't wash here

i made no such denial ...

slainte rob

[headquest]

conversely (and more for the sake of debate than anything personal) ... you would NEVER show up in a hosts thread here where live had not yet been mentioned just to promote it ??? ...

Depends on the thread title, really.

its understandable that people want to promote / support / defend the tools they use and WILL react to what they perceive as an irrelevant and (in context) unwarranted slight on it whether they carry a 'badge' or not ...

How did they/you know that - in passing - I had made an two-words-parenthesis comment about Tracktion? Very strange. Sure, this is a public forum and four of the top Tracktion dudes may have happened to be browsing a thread about FL and Live simultaneously... but I'm less incluined to believe in cooincidences, particularly as this happens over and over again here.

who is being the "defensive" fanboy here?

I've not used the "f" word about anyone here. And if you really think I am an Ableton "fanboy" then you really don't know me at all! There have been plenty of times when I recommended people to choose Sonar over Ableton, and even Tracktion over Ableton (even since I stopped using it myself!!). I try to take account of their needs and the specific question they have asked!

And when Ableton get it wrong (as they did with Live 4 for a time) then I am one of the first to scream and shout on their forum! But this thread invited comparissons between FL and Ableton (which you are still not making ) and I recommended Ableton most of the two. I don't think that makes me a fanboy, or anyone else who contributed ON TOPIC to this thread, whether they recommended Live or FL.

And if you really think recommending Ableton is so important to me consider this: I am presently looking at signing a contract that might forbid me from recommending Ableton altogether in public (for exclusivity reasons). Not exactly what an Ableton fanboy would do

[Lunch Money]

Bah,

Headquest, check your head. I'm literally stupefied about this page of the thread, and I have to get out of it before things get surreal. I can't handle surreal lately.

Greg

[Jason Brian Merrill]

I am not a fan of any hosts mentioned here, but I definietly see certain "teams" of people that jump in, knitpick, and slag off those who are honestly criticizing their beloved hosts (in certain other sitiations / threads). I dont know if that happened here, and Im not looking into it enough to care, but i will say, those who cannot have logical debate, discussion even, about a host, and who end up teaming up on people, and fanboying, look really stupid in the long run

[Lunch Money]

Dammit, now that I'm in this thread, the yellow icon appears and I'm far too addicted to forums to NOT read it. But since this is a slightly new tack, I'll follow it:

HQ was not ganged up on. It's surely no coincidence that a ) intelligent people use Tracktion <that's a joke! a joke!> b ) I didn't bother contributing to the thread until headquest made his same blanket statements that have been addressed a million times. It's unfortunate that it's in one ear and out the other a lot of the time, but after sitting on my hands for a few hours, I couldn't resist the urge to respond. It had everything to do with my own personal tendency to address such points and nothing to do with other Tracktioneers being around. In fact, part of the reason I sat on my hands was specifically BECAUSE there were already other people on the scene as it were. But at the end of the day, I ended up responding in spite of there being other Tracktioneers and not because of it.

Headquest knows me pretty well, so I'm sure when he thinks about it, he'll know that it's exactly the case.

As for logic and debate, you probably know already that I prize those things above all others (well, not above all others IRL, but in a forum context). I'd never use anything BUT logic in my points. Any points made by pHz, ModuLR, or myself, can easily be addressed logically and seperately since they didn't "stack" on top of one another. It's a red herring to pull the victim card. If there were logical points to be made, rather than emotional responses (ie., "those evil fanboys are ganging up on me," they could easily have been made.

If anything, the reason headquest and I have historically (note, "historically", so this is nothing new to him) continued debates rather than just making our points and going our separate ways, is because I find it absolutely irresistable-- some sort of twisted compulsion, really-- to point out logical inconsistencies in debate. And headquest, unfortunately, always goes to illogical points that don't "follow," to which I find myself responding in what eventually becomes a 9-page thread with the end result being that he still doesn't see any of the points I've made and therefore brings them up again-- like the dropped first note, which I've addressed on several occasions. It's all very circular, but none of it positions hq as the victim.

A few people who share a viewpoint don't automatically constitute a "gang"-- that would imply that we're in the same thread by choice (whereas I dragged myself in against my own will, unable to ignore headquest's illogic) to intentionally join forces in some sort of attack. As mentioned, pHz and Mod were here because they both use Live. They were making separate points. I'm here because I can't stop myself from arguing with headquest's continued misinformation, and I made a separate post. I wouldn't even be here if HQ hadn't mentioned Tracktion. In any event, that's hardly a gang.

It's almost beyond my comprehension that headquest could have made that implication.

Greg

[diverdee]

The dropped first note 'feature' still is outstanding though isn't it?
Which is no problem if one is just playing back a section, as one just starts playback a little early to 'workaround' the problem.
Whether it is perceived as a major problem or not depends on ones workflow though doesn't it?
If one is looping a section to overdub midi & gradually build a pattern up - starting a likkle bit early could be considered inconvenient, especially since the various looping options do now apparently work correctly in tracktion & more especially if one is, for instance, looping an instance of a rewired reason device that may be playing a pattern etc.
Unless the dropping first note doesn't occur when looping, in which case it's all gravy (as they say).
Not meaning to be argumentative, or negative - just pointing out that a bug/feature that may appear inconsequential to one end-user, due to the workflow they utilise could be considered fairly major/inconvenient for another end-user who has a very different workflow paradigm.
Asking that person to utilise a 'workaround' by, for instance, changing their workflow in order to accomodate for said bug/feature is no workaround really at all (in my humble opinion).

Just throwing this out there as I have noticed a few responses on threads in the RMS forum of the nature of 'well it doesn't affect me personally as I don't work that way - so maybe you shouldn't either, then you wouldn't have the problem'.