ableton live5 compared to fls6xxl?

[Jason Brian Merrill]

I definetly see some craziness here, and it isnt just HQ --

[fandango]

That said headquest, changing your sig like that just gives the impression of "rebound".

As though Live is the uglier but more dependable girlfriend, but the great sex was with Tracktion and you still feel bitter about it...

[ModuLR]

Okay, seeing as you guys apparently aren't going to ever see the issue here, it's time for some new rules:

(1) I've changed my signature (see below). This will really simplify things, and enable me to use my time more productively!

(2) From now on the Tracktion Police are [muted members] or at least I'm going to ignore the lot of you (you ignore my points anyway, so I'll ignore yours!). Again, it will save me from getting drawn into silly arguments with people that find it amusing to goad me (crumbs - just how immature IS that?!)

toodle pip.

that's a nice way to ignore the truth and evidence just presented to you. Thanks for once again dragging my name into this shit with comments that have been ordered to make you look like a victim. Whatever.

[tony tony chopper]

I believe that the timestretch algorithm licensed by Image Line for use in FL is the same one that is in Live

it's totally not. And there's a reason we chose a precomputed one: realtime ones are more or less granular-based and only good for monophonic stuff.

[Jason Brian Merrill]

I believe that the timestretch algorithm licensed by Image Line for use in FL is the same one that is in Live

it's totally not. And there's a reason we chose a precomputed one: realtime ones are more or less granular-based and only good for monophonic stuff.

but it would still be nice to have as an option in FLS

[ModuLR]

I believe that the timestretch algorithm licensed by Image Line for use in FL is the same one that is in Live

it's totally not. And there's a reason we chose a precomputed one: realtime ones are more or less granular-based and only good for monophonic stuff.

Watch out.. don't dare point out that he made another false claim about Live5.. cos he'll mute you! I know, unnecessary jab at headquest. I just want him to admit the truth. Sorry for draging this into the gutter people. I'm done.

[DHR53]

My brief overview experience with the host/DAWs in question:

Tracktion: Loop record: dropping notes; leaving the first note off until looped through once, midi editing: dragging notes, copying and pasting, drag copying... Arghhh! (that's all I'll say)

Fruity: One bar in Piano Roll turns into 2 bars, or 3, 4,5, or... if it's one note more?? Hmmm, I guess thats pattern based for ya'? Also, why can't I see the overview of all the notes/pianoroll (like in sequencer) and the way they relate, other than in the playlist, which doesn't really let you see anything other than little boxes... not a linear sequencer I guess!

Live: Session view, Arrange view... Session view, Arrange view... Arghhh! where am I??? 4 VIs, oh my god cpu is at 50% no (kybd.) navigation between screen areas (mixer, instrument, clips) to change focus... drove me nuts!

Cubase: Arghhhh!

Orion: Easy to get ideas down fast... If you like it's paradigm, you'll love it, period!

Acid: Audio... Audio, Audio!

Reason: I liked 2.5 better!

EXT: It always looked like I was using a wire frame model of something?? Hmmm... still really cool with all you can do with it if your the "mad scientist" type...

Hmmm... which brings me to Logic... CPU effiicient... tons of cmnd.keys for everything, simple or complex: user configurable, good FX and instruments, uh, audio not so good, but mostly pluses... My choice (currently)

So there you have it! Every one of these observations (mine) could start a complete thread war in itself... Or they could just be my opinion, depending on whether you try to talk me out of these views

[headquest]

@ ModuLR:

Go back and read my long post to LM on the last page. You actually quoteed the bit I'm refering to! Note:

(1) I mentioned Tracktion the first time BEFORE you entered the thread.
(2) That is why I thought you entered the thread, especially bearing in mind that you have still not posted here about FL or Live, the subject of the thread.
(3) I've also said that I *may* have misinterpreted your intentions
(4) We have both apologised!
(5) I also subsequently said this about you:

ModuLR has certainly helped loads of people, and on many occasions in the past I have heaped praise on him! He has provided some mega useful utilities for Tracktion (and others) and the respect people give him has been well earned... I'm definitely not in ModuLRs league!

I've been pretty complimentary to you under the circumstances, but in response you just continue with your angry outbursts on every page, bluntly refusing to either accept the compliments I have paid you or climb down off your perch. WHat gives?

I said earlier that I hoped you were the same mega-helpful guy I have lavished compliments on in the past, and was assured that you were. With each post you make, it seems otherwise though

[Jason Brian Merrill]

its just a continuation of obsessive fanboyism -- dont worry, just sign up at F.A. when you get a chance.

[grymmjack]

[rpc9943]

zzzzzz

use whatever tools u want

ROnC

[AD80]

...proving that he hadn't read my earlier posts in which I had said that I didn't see this thread as the place to discuss Tracktion. He also chose to ignore the fact that it was pHz who basically stirred the whole argument up.

Hay if you're gonna ignore me then keep my damn name out of your mouth, or in this case your fingers . I was already done talking to you but then you had to re-live the fun again. You always try to pull off the same exact thing, thats why you get the same reaction from the same people. You take cheap jabs at Tracktion WITHOUT ANY PROOF, then you try to act like you're trying to stay on topic. PHZ didnt mention Tracktion at all, it was YOU as usual, trying to take a jab a Mod when he mentioned that Live also has problems. Thats all it is. Its Childish. Yeah you have the right to say whatever you want about Tracktion, but I have the right to respond aswell, free speech is a two way street.

And you have a long history of doing this after your little failed executive debacle. So its not so much the comments that bother me, its YOU. Its YOU PERSONALLY that I have problem with. Many people talk about Tracktion all the time, good/bad I dont care, as long as they have proof. But you stated that you have "major stability issues" which, like I sayd ,is not something common and probably specific to your system, and then you claimed that droves of people are leaving tracktion, again based on thin air. This is nothing new for you, so why are you surprised at the same response?

Well now you guys have tired me out. I'm done with trying to argue with the four of you. I came here to post about FL/Live.

But yet you feel the need to bring up Tracktion for no reason haha. Round it goes.

[Jason Brian Merrill]

you are all idiots.

[ModuLR]

@ ModuLR:

Go back and read my long post to LM on the last page. You actually quoteed the bit I'm refering to! Note:

(1) I mentioned Tracktion the first time BEFORE you entered the thread.

and you can't seem to READ the thread.

1st post by you... page 1, post #14.

Both are powerful and well designed, but I'll recommend Ableton over FL because:

1) I think it handles audio work much better and more logically. Audio and MIDI are handled in just the same way, rather than using a whole different paradigm as in FL. So audio and MIDI are much better integrated in Ableton imho.

2) Live's ability to instantly warp audio to fit the project tempo is unusual if not unique. I have no idea how you could even attempt that in FL.

In a similar way, the Warp Markers are great for quickly correcting timing issues in multitrack recordings. Did I mention that Ableton seems a much more obvious choice for a multitrack recording session?

3) The Session View in Ableton is like a design epiphany. Arranging clips in the context of horizontal scenes (which correspond to sections of a song/piece) and intuitive vertical mixer strips is one of those things that seem so obvious you wonder why nobody did it before. The fact that you can then also manipulate the whole project in real time to "jam" an arrangement is pure genius.

4) Ableton's freeze function is quicker and more intuitive to me than the process of bouncing audio and disabling MIDI tracks is in FL. I know the two ultimately amount to the same, but Ableton seem to have provided a better, no-fuss solution to the CPU issue.

5) Ableton seem to me to be more responsive devlopers who present themselves more professionally on forums. The FL guys have sometimes been quite rude to people here at KVR (including me) which is a shame. SImilarly, in terms of users I get the impression (possibly because of a minority) that FL appeals to a lot of teenagers. The fanboy element and rudeness of some FL users has rather put me off the application.

2nd post by you... page 2, post #2

2) Live's ability to instantly warp audio to fit the project tempo is unusual if not unique. I have no idea how you could even attempt that in FL.

actually, thats one of FL's strong points IMHO.
You can either:

A) right click an audio file in the browser and select "Open in new slicer channel" or..

B) same procedure but choose the granulizer instead of the slicer.
or...

C) drop an audio file in the time line, right click the time knob and select 1 beat, 2 beats, 1 bar , 4 bars etc etc.
or....

D) drop an audio file in the timeline and drag the right edge to stretch/compress.

FL also plays loops in time when you audition from the browser like Live does.

That's interesting - thanks. But presumably it doesn't do all that live in real time with gapless audio?

3rd post by you, page 2, post #4

Okay, but not the same thing at all as the gapless audio, instant automatic timestretching that Ableton is known for - one of the things that surely sets Ableton apart from FL and most other stuff in fact.

Ultimately - and this is the other real difference between the two: "Ableton has changed the whole way that people can work with samples" (quoted from a Coldcut interview I watched last night ).

4th post by you, page 2, post #6

I believe that the timestretch algorithm licensed by Image Line for use in FL is the same one that is in Live.

So they sound the same... except that FL doesn't have the complex mode.

5th post by you, page 2, post #8

No - it uses non-destructive warp markers instead. What's your point?

6th post by you, page 3, post #12

My point? That theres an additional option in FL, slicing wav files. Some people prefer this over the granular timestretch used in Live.

Sure. FL is a great programme and it has a few tricks up its sleeve that Live doesn't have. But I personally prefer Ableton for the reasons I listed.

Havent you ever had any issues with sound quality when your altering rhythms with warp markers, pitching stuff etc?

I did when I first used it, but then I spent a bit longer learning how the four (five now of course) different timestretch modes worked, what they are capable of, etc.

And as you now said, "abusing" the warp markers can be fun and by deliberately pushing beyond the limits you can get all sorts of silly effects. But I was talking about using the feature within normal limits.

In terms of comparissons I use REX sliced loops in Reason, Acid loops in Sonar and ABleton's warp markers. They are all pretty good

7th post by you... page 2, post #15

groove quantize, a'la logic, acid etc, would be fantastic.

In Live 5 you can actually Groove Quantise AUDIO [by copying and pasting warp markers from one complete audio track to another] - something I am not aware that any other programme can do! (For full information see the recent tutorial on the subject in Sound on Sound - or ask and I'll explain more!)

So for MIDI you could simply bounce to audio and then Groove Quantise.

Once again, this is very much the sort of thing that makes Ableton a unique and very special piece of music software that stands out from not only FL, but from all the rest!

But yes, a direct MIDI groove quantise would also be nice.

8th post by you.. page 3, post #2

Raw Theory:

No such problems here. First of all check your audio settings are correct:

Options > Preferences > Audio tab: Driver Type should say ASIO. If not, select ASIO from the dropdown menu and then configure your soundcard settings correctly using the other info in the dialog box. The latency settings should be corrected there first (and on your hardware's setup).

Also check that "Delay Compensation" is ticked/selected from the Options Menu.

Delay Compensation works well for VST and AU instruments/effects, but is not yet fixed for Rewire slave devices (it will be soon). That would only cause a problem if you were using VST and Rewire devices simultaneously, though. This is the only latency issue that I am aware users have discussed in version 5.0.3.

By the way, 1ms latency is generally undetectable . Adding that will have no discernable effect. And also if there is a particular latency issue on one track you can manually adjust latency for that track within the mixer section.

1ST POST BY ME, page 3 post #3

groove quantize, a'la logic, acid etc, would be fantastic.

In Live 5 you can actually Groove Quantise AUDIO [by copying and pasting warp markers from one complete audio track to another] - something I am not aware that any other programme can do! (For full information see the recent tutorial on the subject in Sound on Sound - or ask and I'll explain more!)

So for MIDI you could simply bounce to audio and then Groove Quantise.

Once again, this is very much the sort of thing that makes Ableton a unique and very special piece of music software that stands out from not only FL, but from all the rest!

But yes, a direct MIDI groove quantise would also be nice.

uhh... Acid can groove quantize audio AND midi...

[/quote]

9th post form you, page 3.. post #4

uhh... Acid can groove quantize audio AND midi...

Cheers ModuLR, I didn't know that.

Let's hope that as of version 6, Acid will also be able to run without crashing, host VSTs properly, and begin to reverse the quite shocking/appalling fall from glory that it has suffered since Sony bought it.

2nd post from me, page 3.. post #6

Let's hope that as of version 6, Acid will also be able to run without crashing, host VSTs properly, and begin to reverse the quite shocking/appalling fall from glory that it has suffered since Sony bought it.

some would argue the same for Live5... touche!

10th post from you, page 3.. post #8

Let's hope that as of version 6, Acid will also be able to run without crashing, host VSTs properly, and begin to reverse the quite shocking/appalling fall from glory that it has suffered since Sony bought it.

some would argue the same for Live5... touche!

Dunno really. I don't see lots of people deffecting from Live... it seems to be doing pretty well at present. Let's hope that lasts . But who still uses Acid? Not too many people it seems, although maybe the next version will restore its fortunes.

Personally I have used Live since version 2 and not had a single crash . The only music software that ever gave me serious stability problems was Tracktion 2, but that's a whole other story.

That is the ORDER of events... which then brings us to this..

(2) That is why I thought you entered the thread, especially bearing in mind that you have still not posted here about FL or Live, the subject of the thread.
(3) I've also said that I *may* have misinterpreted your intentions
(4) We have both apologised!
(5) I also subsequently said this about you:

ModuLR has certainly helped loads of people, and on many occasions in the past I have heaped praise on him! He has provided some mega useful utilities for Tracktion (and others) and the respect people give him has been well earned... I'm definitely not in ModuLRs league!

I've been pretty complimentary to you under the circumstances, but in response you just continue with your angry outbursts on every page, bluntly refusing to either accept the compliments I have paid you or climb down off your perch. WHat gives?

I said earlier that I hoped you were the same mega-helpful guy I have lavished compliments on in the past, and was assured that you were. With each post you make, it seems otherwise though

You thought you mentioned Tracktion before, when you in fact DID NOT! You let your own internal Tracktion bias blind you. No one spoke a single word of tracktion expcept you.. and it was after my comment! Not only *may* you have misinterpretted my intentions. You clearly *did* misinterpret them, as Tracktion was never mentioned prior to my comment. You are just hearing things in your head that are NOT there! READ THE THREAD! READ IT! Damn. This was about FL and Live, with me suggesting a certain unique live5 feature claim you made was in fact available in Acid.. with the addition of it being able to groove quantize midi as well. After which implied Acid is a crashy mess, after which I suggested don't paint such a rosey picture for Live5 because it has some issues as well. All of this with NO Tracktion commentary. Don't you see that? How can you write over and over again that you had mentioned tracktion and assumed that is why I jumped in the mix.. when I have unquestionably proven that Tracktion was never even mentioned prior. I don't get it! Why the denial? when it's right in front your face. To me, that *IS* crazy.

The complements don't really mean shit... hell, you are a helpful person.. I understand that... but f**k, own up to it when you are dead wrong.

[Jason Brian Merrill]

why not own up when you are an obsessive idiot too then?