Cakewalk Music Creator vs. Sonar

[Joseph Burrell]

Wow. I'm sorry. I don't know who designs the user interfaces for these programs, but they just get worse and worse as time goes by. I don't know why they have to make everything so difficult. It's kludgy, obvious things take too many steps... Geeze. With a $30 application, you shouldn't have to think, you shouldn't have to worry, everything should be logically laid out. No wonder no one really talks about this program, there's no way this thing could reach critical mass.

[Joseph Burrell]

And its limited to 8 VST instruments.

[grymmjack]

Wow. I'm sorry. I don't know who designs the user interfaces for these programs, but they just get worse and worse as time goes by. I don't know why they have to make everything so difficult. It's kludgy, obvious things take too many steps... Geeze. With a $30 application, you shouldn't have to think, you shouldn't have to worry, everything should be logically laid out. No wonder no one really talks about this program, there's no way this thing could reach critical mass.

If only selling price had anything to do with quality... *sigh* We can all dream.

I've seen $500 apps with crappier interfaces, that are ridiculously priced: SAW Studio. What a horrible f**king UI. Yet people keep buying it, so it must do something well. It's like $1000 or some such nonsense and can't do half the stuff programs 1/10th it's price can do.

So unfortunately selling price has nothing to do with quality of interface.

[Joseph Burrell]

Actually, I would think the inverse to be true. The cheaper the application the more the developer obviously wishes to reach a broader market (mass market.) To do this, they should keep in mind that not everyone with $30 has used a high end sequencer or is willing to put up with their convoluted approaches. In the 'mass market' game, speed and intuativeness win the day. I approach most applications in this manner for the first time, as I'm sure many do. If it takes me more than 30 seconds to load my first VST, then something is wrong. In a $30 app that is obviously catered to the mass market (products like eXT excluded here since its a niche product) you don't want the user to get bogged down in trivialities or menus. Who's more likely to get frustrated? Someone who's been doing this for years or the kid who just walked into Circuit City looking for a music program and went home with Cakewalk Music Creator?

And I would expect a $3000.00 app like SAW Studio to be complex. Just like I expected Samplitude or Cubase or Sonar to be. They're specialized applications. Not that the workflows couldn't be improved or the interfaced cleaned up. They could all use some serious help. And you're right, SAW is (with all due respect to all the things it does beautifully) one ugly program.

But, John Q. Cakewalk didn't ask my advice, so I'm just wasting time here since there's nothing better to do.

[silicon/silicium]

can someone confirm the 8 vsti limitation??

[Joseph Burrell]

I can. I ran into the limitation last night. Kind of feel ripped off since that limitation isn't published publicly.

[studiosonic]

I can. I ran into the limitation last night. Kind of feel ripped off since that limitation isn't published publicly.

Luckily I don't think that limitation would effect me as I've probably only used 6 VSTi's max in one session - but anwyay, it's definitely not publicised. The limitations of the product, although understandable for a budget program, should at least be spelled out for the consumer!

[kp]

If it takes you more than 30 seconds to load a VSTi (Insert->SoftSynth->Whatever) which is pretty standard Windows behaviour and intuitive, I'd question what level of general computing experience the user has.

[fandango]

I can. I ran into the limitation last night. Kind of feel ripped off since that limitation isn't published publicly.

Though I don't feel ripped off now for buying Home Studio...

(you guys should still get a higher upgrade price to Sonar though...)

[christianmusicmaker]

If it takes you more than 30 seconds to load a VSTi (Insert->SoftSynth->Whatever) which is pretty standard Windows behaviour and intuitive, I'd question what level of general computing experience the user has.

Also Cakewalk's inclusion of video tutorials into the boxed version should provide enough step by step visual information to get even a total novice up an running. Just watch the tutorials! Few if any hosts for £25 (boxed) offer such welcome additional video material.

I have for instance seen the spectrasonics RMX videos and watching them really does dramatically reduce the time needed to get up and running with RMX.

Cakewalk clearly thought of this and for anyone who finds MC3 too complex to get into, if you have not already got it, but plan too, get the boxed version which has the video tutorials on a separate CD.

I would have really appreciated additional Video material when I bought Cubasis VST about 4 years ago as a total novice to music software. I got totally lost on many occassions when a simple step by step video tutorial would have let me see and hear where I went wrong. I did read the manual as well.

I think part of the problem with the perception of MC3 has to do with the simple fact that it is indeed a version of a far more powerful and feature rich host. MC3 provides a suprising amount of those powerful features at a considerably lower cost.

I don't personally see MC3 as being difficult to get into but I can also see why others do. Get the popcorn out and watch those tutorials already.

[Joseph Burrell]

If it takes you more than 30 seconds to load a VSTi (Insert->SoftSynth->Whatever) which is pretty standard Windows behaviour and intuitive, I'd question what level of general computing experience the user has.

First you have to understand what menu items you need to look through to find this. Then you have to realize that there are two tracks that can be configured during this. The audio for the wrapped VST and the midi to direct to it (which is an awful visual representation of what's going on anyway, IMO.) I was over-generalizing the process to some degree, yes. And I don't have any problems with such minor hurdles as its no different than the convoluted interfaces/workflows of some applications out there. Its just as bad in most of them. There are things to like about this program, but it still boggles my mind how it could be shipped/priced to the mass market, but come with such an unfriendly interface for people new to digital composing. Again, you're judging the program from the angle that you have experience dealing with cludgy interfaces (since most programs do, to some degree.) Someone new to the game and just getting started would not have such an easy time dealing with this, which is how I try to approach the program.

My bottom line was that, for the price and potential market for this program I was surprised to find it so cumbersome. No knock against it, since it is an excellent value for the money and well worth the investment to learn (but how many newbs are going to take that time?), since I rarely expect any different.

And yes, limitations to programs (no matter how generous they may be) should be published. Its a shame that the 8 VSTi limitation isn't broadcast knowledge. I'll have a hard time bothering with the program and consider it $30 down the crapper. And it kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth since it wasn't fair to me to be shackled with a limitation that I wasn't aware of existing. Everything else is staring me in the face when I looked at the specs, this seems like a pretty sad oversight.

Of course, its a hell of a deal to upgrade to Sonar if I ever felt frisky enough. You'd think someone at Cakewalk would realize that a new perchaser can buy MC3 and then turn around and upgrade to Sonar Studio and spend $230 instead of the $499 that Sonar goes for a non-Cakewalk user.

[fandango]

The 2-tracks per soft synth has to go. Seriously. Even though you can hide them or stick them in folder tracks, you find yourself needing either one or the other for something and having to open it up again. It's just a messy way to do things. I can understand the logic for doing it (1 - dedicated MIDI track TO synth, 2 - dedicated Audio output FROM synth), but in practice it's confusing, cluttering and messy.

I don't know what's worse, the track view cluttered with soft synth audio tracks (a nightmare with multi-out plugins), or a traditional mixer view cluttered with MIDI strips.

Don't get me wrong, Sonar is great and I WANT to love using it, but it's things like this that just block the workflow.

[kp]

NO! Please keep 2 tracks per soft-synth, just allow us to replace soft-synths (a la Project 5) without having to repatch audio track inputs/MIDI track outputs (which is a real annoyance, especially when you forget :-)).

2 tracks is a much neater way of working than one (how would you deal with MFX and audio FX if you had a single track without being confusing, for example?).

[kp]

Joseph: Humour me :-) What is a more obvious way to someone who's new to working with recording (software or hardware) but uses a computer than "Insert X"? I'm assuming that it's that kind of person that CHS is aimed at.

Remember that by default, SONAR (and so I assume CHS) auto-creates the MIDI track and the audio tracks correctly hooked up.

[fandango]

Well, I just don't understand why the audio side can't be handled on the Mixer and the MIDI side handled in the Track view. The only thing I've ever used the Track View audio bit for is automating parameters of audio FX. I was going to write about how it's done in other apps but A) you know B) it's starts usability flamewars.

I'm used to it (the 2 tracks thing, not the flamewars). I just find it frustrating in Sonar to have, say, 8 MIDI tracks and 8 audio tracks for 1 instance of GPO when I feel I should be using just 8 MIDI in the track view and 8 Audio in the Mixer. I can just hide the audios in the track view and the midis in the mixer, but sooner or later you need either one or the other back again and find yourself pressing 'M' and trying to find the channel that matches the midi.

By which time the keyboard is smashed in a frenzy, coffee is thrown across the room in rage and I shake the monitor violently before slunking to my knees getting into a foetal position and just weeping....