Need Help with PDC and Live5 pleeeease

[dusted william]

I have sent an email to the Live5 support, I have posted on there forum.

Now I come here for some help. I am told in another thread that what I'm about to show you works, but for me it doesn't so I must be doing something wrong. Can someone please help me?

Here is how to recreate my problem

............edit.... you can also recreate the below steps with midi.

1. open up live5
2. create an audio track
3. use a live sound source for that audio track. I am using a microphone.
4. snap your fingers or clap in the microphone. Notice with your ear the natural ASIO delay.

5. Add a bunch of FX that will increase the latency. Plugs that send PDC info to the host.
6. snap your fingers again and notice the increased delay from all your plugs.

So far all is working the way I would want, but here is the rub. Let's say I want to add a new bassline, or vocal. I need to be able to turn off that extra delay from happening so I can record as close to real time as possible.

7. turn off all the plugs that introduce delay. then snap your fingers in the mic. If you are like me you will notice no change in the delay of signal. In other hosts this works.

8. go to the option menu and turn off delay compensation. This also does not decrease the delay in the input signal.


Others say this works for them, but for me it doesn't. What am I doing wrong? I just want to be able to stop all the delay so I can record some extra stuff into a finished song.

thanks for all your help.

dw

[VariKusBrainZ]

have you checked your hardware buffer size....

I know its obviouse...

[dusted william]

yes, it stays the same. I am talking about the extra delay introduced by certain plugins

thanks,

dw

[Synthbuilder]

I'm not sure I fully understand the problem here.

Plugins will always introduce delay. If the audio signal goes through any plugin the output will be delayed whether PDC is on or off.

PDC ensures, or tries to ensure, that any audio is sent to the plugins early. But it can only do this if the audio is already recorded. PDC will not compensate for any plugin delay on audio that is processed live.

If your signal path needs to run through any plugins you will get a delay. You cannot stop this.

The best thing to do is always monitor through some sort of external hardware device. I use my mixer.

Now the weird thing about Live is that the introduced plugins carry on producing a delay even when they are turned off. Only by removing them do you not get any delay again.

If you really have to monitor through the software, the best thing to do is to create a monitoring channel. This is a specially designed channel that you do not record to, but is configured to pass its input straight into Live's main output. Make sure the IN/OFF/AUTO switch is set to IN.

You can should now send your signal that you want to record simultaneously to two tracks. One is your main recording track, and the other is your new monitor only track. Set the IN/OFF/AUTO switch to OFF on the recording track.

This should give you the minimum latency. It should be noted that you should not use any plug-ins, on or off, in the main mix output as these will delay everything that Live spits out.

[dusted william]

Thanks synth builder.

I'll try out what you say. I wish that when i turned off the FX the delay would stop that is all I want.

I may need some help setting up the monitor track

thanks

dw

[Rusty Shackleford]

The whole idea is that you should be able to add/remove modules without any glitches to the performance in a live PA scenario. Bypassing plugins won't eliminate the delay that Live compensates for on these plugins because otherwise if you have them on, say, your drums submix then you're gonna get some weirdness when you enable/disable bypass.

[dusted william]

I think you should be able to turn off a plug and have it no long introduce latency. That's how it works in other hosts. Would you want a plug to still steal from the CPU if it was turned off? Of course not, same goes for latency.

SynthBuilder.

I got what you said to work for audio, but I can't get it to work for midi. Have you ever been succesful doing the same with midi.

Thanks by the way, that is a life saver for me. Now if only I can get the midi to do the same.

dw

[CinningBao]

Now if only I can get the midi to do the same.

dw

I reported this as a bug in the first releases of Live5 (or what is a feature request?), and had high hopes of a fix in both later versions - as yet they haven't implemented it

Maybe they need a reminder before the 5.2 release..

[dusted william]

I sent them another email. How should we go about bringing this to there attention. It really cripples live if you want to add a midi line.

Imagine...

most of you mix is done, but you want to add one little drum roll. If so you're screwed, unless you want to delete all the FX that introduce latency, and start your mix over again.

arghhhh... at least I now know how to do the audio side of it.

dw

[Synthbuilder]

There is no reason why midi tracks should be delayed by latency of other tracks. The only latency you should be hearing will be the plugs that the midi track you are recording has to go through.

I don't get why you should have any more latency when you start working on a track or at the end. The only delay should be the plugs in the track you are recording on.

Live 5.03 fixed the daft problem of pre-recording midi early to compensate for latency. But this was a misunderstanding on the Abe's part. This wasn't a latency issue as such, more of a recording in the wrong place.

Actually, when you say recording midi, do you mean to control external synths? If so, again you shouldn't really be monitoring through software, but through an external mixer. Or perhaps your soundcard will allow low latency mixing internally.

But if you have to monitor an external instrument through the software, use the special monitor channel to do this.

Either way, you shouldn't be experiencing serious latency problems with recording midi.

By the way what are your soundcard settings?

[dusted william]

SynthBuilder,

Thanks for your help on this.

I don't get why you should have any more latency when you start working on a track or at the end. The only delay should be the plugs in the track you are recording on.

yes, this is my problem.

With your audio workaround it doesn't matter how many plugins are in the tracks, but with midi it does.

If a midi track has a few plugins that introduce PDC, I can't find a way to play the instrument on that track without noticing the extra delay.

My sound card is set right. When I do your audio suggestion everything was working fine.

Thanks,

dw

[Synthbuilder]

If I understand you right, you have a VSTi followed by a series of plugins??

Unfortunately, there is no way you can reduce latency if you have a long chain of plugs you really need. But this would be surely true of any audio program.

You need to effectively reduce the number of plugs whilst you record and then put them back again.

You could create two tracks, put the main VSTi in one of them. And put all the FX plug ins in the other. In mix down you would pass this VSTi's audio output to the other FX track. This FX track then goes to the main mix output.

But while you record, you could pipe the VSTi only track to the output bypassing the FX track. This way you would only incur the delay from the VSTi and not the FX.

Of course, you wouldn't be able to hear the FX, but it should be enough to get the midi down nice and tight.

[dusted william]

I figured an even better work around.

copy the FX, paste them to an empty track. record your midi, then paste the FX back.

Now you can freeze again.

this works on the master channel as well.

thanks everyone for helping.

I would also thank the kind person at ableton who has emailed me back a few times regarding this subject.

later

dw