Orion??? POS/NEG opinions please... no trolls.

[diverdee]

Regarding multitimbrality & replacing synths.
I don't know how it works in Orion, so i'm not getting into that argument.
But...
An example maybe someone who wants to sketch out an idea using a very low resource vsti like hypersonic for instance & once they have the idea down want to replace then sounds/instances of hypersonic with synths/samplers etc. that use more resources & have the sound they're looking for.
Guess it depends on ones working method, genre, goals etc. & as I said I have no idea how Orion would handle this scenario.

[superddman]

will there be automation lines (volume,pan) ontop of tracks (audio/midi) inside of the Song Arrange in v7?

[Kriminal]

you mean visible lines? No.

[superddman]

you mean visible lines? No.

too bad, don't you feel a need for it?

[Kriminal]

you mean visible lines? No.

too bad, don't you feel a need for it?

not personally no, it would look to cluttered, but i would like the Event Editor window to dock and lock to the playlist.

[BONES]

As for Bones comment that Orion and Cubase handle multi-timbral synths in much the same way. Bones just has no clue about Cubase but is always ready with a comment regardless.

You got the last part right but I was commenting on your description of how it works and you didn't describe it as being terribly much different. So here's a thought, based on what you just said - would you find working with multi-timbral instruments better if it treated each channel as a separate instrument with its own banks of patterns and its own Playlist tracks? I would see that as being even more of a dog's breakfast than it is now. The other thing that might suit your workflow would be if ORION actually allowed you to select a mixer channel. I can see quite a few other benefits from this but I think that it would require too fundamental a change in ORION to be doable [but I could be wrong].

Bones doesn't use them so that automatically means that they're concept. I bet he thinks that VST plugins are also stupid since Orion provides everything he needs to sustain his entire life.

There's no beer in ORION. V7 will definitely address some of these issues but I think that the fundamental ORION paradigm will forever exclude it from being the optimum handler of multi-timbral softsynths. You can put up with the inelegance it brings to your workflow or you can find a way around it, as I have. If I could perceive even the slightest advantage in a multitimbral synth I might decide its worth the sacrifice but surely in the age of software they are an anachronism?

However, there is one instrument that ads something when used multi-timbral and that is DS404: as it is capable of creating different 'layers' based on one loaded sample-set in this case using it as a multi-timbral instrument does have an advantage.

How is this an advantage? In any event, you can load up a native Sampler with up to 16 outputs and assign layers to different outputs. But I don't see how that would have any advantage over loading multiple Samplers.

However, I don't think it will ever talk to my control surface but I can always export the tracks and mixdown in SONAR (although I would better like it the other way around, export from SONAR and mixdown in Orion)

How come? Since v6 you can assign MIDI devices and channels exclusively to the Mixer. I assumed it was implemented specifically to allow you to do this. V6 had lots of handy MIDI improvements.

[BONES]

you mean visible lines? No.

too bad, don't you feel a need for it?

I think we all tend to be far too anal about automation. I used to want all my automation to look neat and tidy but lately I just record it and forget all about it. If you are doing live tweaks you don't get to go back and smooth it all out but the audience can't tell the difference. If you couldn't see your automation at all you would be perfectly happy with it as recorded, I'm sure. Whilst I can see the attraction of spline-based automation I also see that there are many things that are easier to do with the current system, like automating using the LFO tool and quantising automation.

One question, how does spline-based automation work with recording? Do you get a point for every PPQ click or does it work smarter than that?

[zircon]

The advantage of multitimbral synths is that you can assign different effects track to each output. Very important when dealing with plugins like Kontakt or Halion.

[TeeLangSun]

I cant really see what the advanage is using MT synths over using multiple versions of a given synth. No CPU advantage for sure.

Is there something im missing you could explain, cos i cant see it from where i am? (apart from having lots of GUI's)

I figured the same actually. In any case, I knew that my current machine was more than up to the task of however many copies of Hypersonic I needed for the project which is why I used a lot of copies of Hypersonic in this one song I was working on. I don't know if you read what I wrote earlier but what happened was as I added more and more copies of Hypersonic, I began to have redraw issues or some kind of graphic issues anyway. Bones responded that it was because I have a crappy video card. I don't think that is the case. While I definately don't have some gamer's video card like he may have, it's a respectable card that should be more than up to the task of dealing with an audio application. The problem could be related to Hypersonic itself or it could be related to the problem which many people have experienced in Orion where when you try to zoom out in the piano roll and view a long portion of the piano roll grid, you start to experience redraw problems. It was very similar actually. When I attempted to view the piano roll (512 notes and zoomed out to see the entire loop), I got a mess.

So to answer the question, in this particular case, using Hypersonic in multi-timbral mode would have easily avoided this problem.

[7zark7]

You also don't realize that all instruments on a given multi-timbral instrument in Orion share the same length of pattern. To simplify this, imagine if you had a bass on channel 1 of Hypersonic. That pattern was 64 notes long. Now move on to a lead part on midi channel 2 of Hypersonic. Let's say you needed that part to be 256 notes in the piano roll. Well now you have a problem. The bass part plays for 64 notes then goes silent. The lead part continues to play for the entire 256 not pattern until it reaches the end and starts over, at which point the bass will also repeat. You're forced to make all parts/instruments of a multi-timbral synth the exact same length in their respective piano rolls or they absolutely will not loop correctly.

Incorrect, if you associate each midi channel with a different pattern you can expand the tracks in the playlist and layer any size pattern. Right click the track title in the playlist and choose "expand tracks.."

-7zark7

[BONES]

The advantage of multitimbral synths is that you can assign different effects track to each output. Very important when dealing with plugins like Kontakt or Halion.

But you could just as easily do that with multiple instances.

Bones responded that it was because I have a crappy video card. I don't think that is the case. While I definately don't have some gamer's video card like he may have, it's a respectable card that should be more than up to the task of dealing with an audio application.

Actually, gaming cards are generally very poor at doing 2D work. OTOH, a good, professional card will do all that stuff easily. I use an nVidia Quadro4 750XGL which you can pick up these days quite cheaply [the're getting old] or you could get pretty much any Matrox card as their drivers have really good 2D support, which is what you need for smooth screen redraws. I've tried a couple of gamers cards but they just aren't up to snuff for doing screen redraw stuff, even though they usually handle OpenGL pretty well [nVidia not ATI, whose OpenGL is a disgrace].

[zircon]

But you could just as easily do that with multiple instances.

No, it would be pretty stupid to open up (for example) 8 different instances of Stylus RMX to use 8 different effects tracks. That would waste TONS of CPU and RAM. Same goes for 16 instances of Kontakt 2 if you want to use all 16 outs. Until we get computers with 100gb of RAM and 15GHz processors it is not realistic to create multiple instances of CPU/RAM heavy plugins if you simply want different outs on different effects tracks.

[TeeLangSun]

You also don't realize that all instruments on a given multi-timbral instrument in Orion share the same length of pattern. To simplify this, imagine if you had a bass on channel 1 of Hypersonic. That pattern was 64 notes long. Now move on to a lead part on midi channel 2 of Hypersonic. Let's say you needed that part to be 256 notes in the piano roll. Well now you have a problem. The bass part plays for 64 notes then goes silent. The lead part continues to play for the entire 256 not pattern until it reaches the end and starts over, at which point the bass will also repeat. You're forced to make all parts/instruments of a multi-timbral synth the exact same length in their respective piano rolls or they absolutely will not loop correctly.

Incorrect, if you associate each midi channel with a different pattern you can expand the tracks in the playlist and layer any size pattern. Right click the track title in the playlist and choose "expand tracks.."

-7zark7

I just looked into it and you're right, but this adds yet another series of steps to the process of choosing an instrument and playing that instrument. But yes it does allow for instruments of the same multi-timbral synth to be different lengths in the piano roll. So in order to do this you must first go into the piano roll. From there, you must switch midi channels which switches piano rolls. Then you must change from pattern A, to Pattern B in order that you can have a pattern length which is independent of the other instruments on this same multi-timbral synth. At which point, it does work. It's definately not a case closed situation but there's no real point in continuing to kick this dead horse. I don't think that this subject is anywhere in the vicinity of Rich's plans for Orion. I will leave my multi-timbral instruments as single stereo output and add additional copies as needed.

I'm looking forward to version 7. Thanks for the reply.

[TeeLangSun]

The advantage of multitimbral synths is that you can assign different effects track to each output. Very important when dealing with plugins like Kontakt or Halion.

But you could just as easily do that with multiple instances.

Bones responded that it was because I have a crappy video card. I don't think that is the case. While I definately don't have some gamer's video card like he may have, it's a respectable card that should be more than up to the task of dealing with an audio application.

Actually, gaming cards are generally very poor at doing 2D work. OTOH, a good, professional card will do all that stuff easily. I use an nVidia Quadro4 750XGL which you can pick up these days quite cheaply [the're getting old] or you could get pretty much any Matrox card as their drivers have really good 2D support, which is what you need for smooth screen redraws. I've tried a couple of gamers cards but they just aren't up to snuff for doing screen redraw stuff, even though they usually handle OpenGL pretty well [nVidia not ATI, whose OpenGL is a disgrace].

I do have a Matrox card. Matrox GeForce 5200.

[crimsonwarlock]

However, there is one instrument that ads something when used multi-timbral and that is DS404: as it is capable of creating different 'layers' based on one loaded sample-set in this case using it as a multi-timbral instrument does have an advantage.

How is this an advantage? In any event, you can load up a native Sampler with up to 16 outputs and assign layers to different outputs. But I don't see how that would have any advantage over loading multiple Samplers.

In DS404 you can use ONE loaded sampleset and create DIFFERENT instruments in the multi-timbral layers. All the multi-timbral layers can use the ONE loaded sampleset but have their own settings for tuning, keymapping, filters, etc. DS404 is quite powerfull is this regard. So for a complex strings arrangement you can load one big (= high quality) string sample bank and then create different stringsounds based on this sampleset. So you get several stringsounds while there is just ONE sampleset loaded in memory. Orions native sampler is very powerfull but because it is NOT multitimbral it can not do this. I also have Kontakt that is also multi-timbral but it loads a different sampleset for each 'instrument' you create inside it. So I have DS404 installed specifically for this one trick it does (very well)