Analog summing emulation idea

[stash98]

wow, he submitted his idea to the public domain...gee thanks, it's not like people haven't known all this stuff for years or anything.

[Kiwburger]

If it's so well known, wtf are the plugins that emulate this? No need to be nasty dude. I have followed the ITB vs Summing debates at forums where real record producers hang out. No reflection on the KVR community, but the people actually making records tends to be hardware slutz, rather than plugin slutz.

The people actually making hit records are going in for analog summing in a big way, if not full analog. The best brains in the business are arguing about why this should make any damn difference. The most logical reason is simply noise and distortion. I have NEVER ONCE heard any of these exceptional people mention the idea of component tolerance and inaccurary being a possible part of this equation.

The only reason I added this disclaimer, is that I would HATE to see a very simple idea get patented and iLocked and PACE'd up the wazzoo. Simple ideas like this should be available for any plugin developer to use.

And if it is so last fking last century, why isn't it discussed and where are the plugins?

(I appreciate Aleksey's helpful comments about this).

[Kingston]

amen brother! hallelujah!













so it turns out it's one of these "because a friend of a friend said it and he knows *real pros*"


*sigh*

it's back to school for you.

[nuffink]

If it's so well known, wtf are the plugins that emulate this? No need to be nasty dude. I have followed the ITB vs Summing debates at forums where real record producers hang out. No reflection on the KVR community, but the people actually making records tends to be hardware slutz, rather than plugin slutz.

I think you'll find that the people actually making the records are called musicians, not producers. I also think you'll find that most of them couldn't give a toss about anal nonsense like summing busses. They tend to leave that kind of thing to the trainspotters.

[sparrow]

No need to be nasty at Kiwburger.
In my opinion he's got a point, and as far as I know this subject is being debated in many places nowadays.
Why would Waves or IK Multimedia or URS spend loads of money on research trying to understand even emulate analog gear? For the way it's priced I'm sure they're not just targeting amateur wannabies who just come at the image of a few old fashion knobs...
And yes, there is still someone to come with a string of code who will have actually found the way to apply all the very interesting variables mentioned in this thread in in the digital domain and make good use of this idea and all the rest will follow.
I have experience working with analog gear (pretty high end actually) and the difference is stunning. Anyone with good mixing skills and ears can get a very good mix in both environments but the fun and the speed at which you mix in the analog domain has no comparison. Simple as this.


Cheers

[Kiwburger]

Ah it's all good fun. I can cope with rude prix. I've been dabbling in home recording for years, and only recently built a serious standalone recording facility. Around 2000 I made the decision to minimise my hardware and go all digital. Generally, plugins have got a lot better, but i'm with the guy who says this stuffs your creativity. I am going back to hardware in a big way now - because finally I can afford Neves and stuff I couldn't afford back then.

But I have a foot in both camps. I frequent a few forums, and the exchange of ideas is just brilliant.

When I mention digital plugins to some of the high end producers, I get slagged by them because in their view only expensive analog stuff is worthwhile. When I mention the limitation of software in a forum like this, I get slagged by the plugin fan boys because they don't like to admit real hardware might actually be better.

Fine. I'll use whatever works for me.

People have made big money by patenting silly little things before. 'BBE sound' is simply a slight phase shift so the highs and lows hit you before the mids do. And yet they patented this simple idea and made it very difficult for anyone else to use it without paying royalties.

If you want to talk about new ideas in audio, you need to consider the open source community and protect their interests by ensuring that new ideas are not snatched by the corporate whores.

OK - so maybe my idea is fkn stoopid. Get over it.

[Kingston]

People have made big money by patenting silly little things before. 'BBE sound' is simply a slight phase shift so the highs and lows hit you before the mids do.

actually, the mids stay as is, and lows and highs are delayed/phase shifted (with a few filter summing tricks).

And yet they patented this simple idea and made it very difficult for anyone else to use it without paying royalties.

Eh? So what about refinedaudiometrics CLAS (free) that sounds better than any BBE, using the same exact process? What about spectrasonics?



It's these half-arsed conclusions that you speak of as the truth that gets you the hostile responses. Fine, you learned something new, now go learn some more and come back with more thought out conclusions. The preaching stuff is very tiring.

[Kiwburger]

Speaking of half arsed - I think you will find (if you bother to inspect your own poo) that BBE is all about causing the highs and lows to hit your ear earlier than the mids. What gets phase delayed more going through a speaker - the highs or the mids? It's the highs that get delayed by speakers and electronics. Which is exactly why BBE tries to reverse this effect, by overcompensating. The analogy that they gave in the early days was like strumming a guitar up or down. If you hit the high strings first, the sound is brighter. If you hit the low strings first, the sound appears darker, but it's only the timing that has changed.

I think the reason that you don't like "preaching stuff" is because you are a bloody preacher yourself.

Do you think you own KVR? Is you view the only right view?

With all due respect - screw you.

[Kiwburger]

Straight from the BBE site ... "In order to address these problems inherent in basic loudspeaker design, BBE Sound, Inc. has developed a circuit that has two primary functions. The first adjusts the phase relationships of the low, mid and high frequencies. Since a loudspeaker's natural tendency is to add progressively longer delay times to higher frequencies, the BBE sound processing system adds progressively longer delay times to lower frequencies. This creates a kind of "mirror" curve to the time delay curve created by the speaker, neutralizing its phase distortion.
"

No hard feelings mate. I piss you off, you piss me off. Sorry if i've offended you.

[Kingston]

Ok, so you don't understand what BBE says in that statement. I admit, it's rather difficult to see it through marketing bullshit.

Here comes total transpotter wankery, excuse me everybody else.



notice the delay/filter network. It's much easier to see how it works with this signal network image. Program that once, and understand the network. It's not as simple as "mids get delayed". The whole signal get's delayed AND summed with the filtered versions of itself. (by the way original BBEs don't even have the limiters featured in this).

so umm, screw *you*. and no hard feelings. I just don't like obvious misinformation being spread. It's even worse when it is spread with second hand marketing based knowledge (ie, bias gone further wrong)

[camsr]

Wanna know something about the 44100hz sample rate? As frequencies approach nyquist (22050hz) they have propressively less "phase resolution". You CANNOT phase the nyquist frequency by 25%, because the sampling period will fall exactly on the midpoint of the sine wave, which is 0. Phased signals create different timbre, even if they are only two sine waves.

I say, if ANYONE wants to do anything involving analog simulation, first it's going to require upping the sample rate a considerable size, so we can process these types of things without having to resort to interpolation, which is slow and inaccurate.

Im done trying to be smart

[Kiwburger]

I think we are at 192kHz already - how far do you want to go? And the desirable "analog" sounds that we want to hear, 99.9% of us hear them via CD. So whatever is desirable about "analog" can be heard via 16/44.1 anyhoo.

What has Refined Audiometrics got to do with BBE? I mentioned BBE and I get a fkn sermon on Refined Audiometrics. I don't know what they are doing, but I doubt that it is the patented BBE process.

BBE causes the highs to arrive sooner than the mids.
It does that so that when the speaker slows the highs down, the highs will be back inline with the mids.
In my book - that implies that the mids are delayed, unless you believe in time travel.

[Kingston]

Look, if you cared to do some research, googled things up (other than BBE marketing bullshit), you'd find out why. There's no use for me babysitting you anymore.

[aciddose]

when was the last time you guys had a wank?

[egbert]

when was the last time you guys had a wank?

What exactly are you - ahem - proposing?