KVR Audio

Nikolas · Post by **Nikolas** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:02 pm

Okay.

Let's say that I need a really good piano for a track of mine, but haven't got any samples.

Let's assume that a friend of mine has Ivory, or Gigapiano or any kind of piano.

Can I give him the midi file, let him make me the audio one, and use it myself?

Can I go to a studio, which has sample libraries, with only the midi files (f my own music of course) and get out of the studio with audio files, for me to mix, or even ready to use?

Is it legal?

I've been hearing different opinions for days now, so any help would be ihghly appreciated.

Nikolas

C00kie · Post by **C00kie** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:24 pm

Nikolas wrote:Let's say that I need a really good piano for a track of mine, but haven't got any samples.

Easiest solution is to get a nice grand piano soundfont or VST for free...

But anyway, you had some questions:

Nikolas wrote:Let's assume that a friend of mine has Ivory, or Gigapiano or any kind of piano. Can I give him the midi file, let him make me the audio one, and use it myself?

Suppose I have a really nice guitar. May you give me some sheet music to play, and you record it? Yes ofcourse!!

It's an instrument which is legally owned, so you may record it without any problems! Unless there is some smallprint in the license of the plugin or library prohibiting lending and renting...

Nikolas wrote:Can I go to a studio, which has sample libraries, with only the midi files (f my own music of course) and get out of the studio with audio files, for me to mix, or even ready to use?

If this were illegal, then all studios could be sued and close their business. Studios exist because they have loads of gear (hardware and software) that sits there waiting to be used by whoever rents the place.

Just my common sense, I'm no lawyer...

Nikolas · Post by **Nikolas** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:33 pm

Thank you for the fast reply.

I don't know how a free grand piano would compare to commercial libraries like EW Gold (cause I'm using these libraries)... If you could direct me to a such free soundfont, then I'm eternally in debt

I'm not exactly sure if it is the same as a guitar playing. Samples have something kinda like license to use the sounds, but you don't own them... Or soemthing like that.

Of course my common sense says that it is legal... but still... anyone else know something else?

Meffy · Post by **Meffy** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:36 pm

I'd think that if the MIDI file consisted of a run through the notes of the scale, one at a time very slowly, that might be dicey. But for an actual melody or harmony that couldn't be disassembled into separate samples for re-use? Like C00kie, I Am Not A Lawyer, but that sounds like a clear-cut fair case to me.

Common sense, guesswork, all fine -- but it'd be best to get the opinion of an actual lawyer! It wouldn't be absolute but it'd be stronger than what you're likely to get on KVR. Unless there's someone here with actual legal facts at hand for this situation.

zircon · Post by **zircon** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:39 pm

It's an instrument which is legally owned, so you may record it without any problems! Unless there is some smallprint in the license of the plugin or library prohibiting lending and renting...

Actually that small print really is there. Many libraries say that YOU are the only one licensed to use it, and you can't rent it out, nor can other people record with it. I'm serious, check the licenses yourself.

CypherOne · Post by **CypherOne** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:41 pm

Where's markleford? He usually knows about this stuff IIRC...

Nikolas · Post by **Nikolas** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:00 am

Okay...

I own EW products (Gold etc...) and I reread the licence agrreement, which states that the only one who can use the product is the owner! So I guess that handing a midi and taking an audio file is not so legal after all!

Except if you mention that "Piano recording with Silver EW blah blah by this person). In which case I guess (<-Again) that he do state that the person who used the product is the person who owns the license for the product! And you give him credit!

And I guess the same applies for the studios. (which may require a separate license dunno). Everyone states that "Recording, producing blah blah done in Studio this.

Thanks guys

liars&ashes · Post by **liars&ashes** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:10 am

----If the studio/friend is co-writer/co-producer of the track, then it's legal, period. What ? Ya can't buy a Korg Triton and play it on someone else's track now ? If it's a legit collaberation, then yes, you can use other people's gear/software, but if you're just "borrowing" it, well, don't admit it, or just don't do it. *shrug*

Jeff

Nikolas · Post by **Nikolas** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:31 am

A Korg Triton is not the same as a sample library. At least for EW products, which I know of (now that I rad the license agreement). You don't own the samples but you own a licence to use them. And you're the only one who can use them. Period (again).

and of course after having spend so much money in osftware I won't start using illegal software...

Cheers.

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:00 am

Nikolas wrote:Okay...
I own EW products (Gold etc...) and I reread the licence agrreement, which states that the only one who can use the product is the owner! So I guess that handing a midi and taking an audio file is not so legal after all!

It defenitely is legal. If any company would try to sue me, I'd gladly accept and have any halfway reasonable lawyer kick their butts big time.
See, if you go to a studio and record something, using a library which the studio has available, you are perfectly allowed to market, sell and do whatever with your recordings. Otherwise sample library companies would be out of business yesterday.
Carrying over a MIDI file to a studio is nothing else but having them record your work.

And, in the end, it's perfectly fitting the "only the owner can use the product" lines. Just that the owner is using it for what a studio is there: Making a recording of your stuff, regardless of what it is.

If things were any different, studios wouldn't be allowed to use *any* sample libraries, simply because it's, say, the keyboarder of the to-be-recorded band "using" the library.

I'm sure there's some sample library developers that *might* try to tell you things were different, but as said before, I'm 100% positive that such maneuvres won't hold any legal water in any court.

C00kie · Post by **C00kie** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:44 pm

Nikolas wrote:If you could direct me to a such free soundfont, then I'm eternally in debt

Just one: http://www.sf2midi.com/index.php?page=sdet&id=6590
There are probably loads of other nice 'n free piano's...

Ildon · Post by **Ildon** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:46 pm

Sascha Franck wrote:
Nikolas wrote:Okay...
I own EW products (Gold etc...) and I reread the licence agrreement, which states that the only one who can use the product is the owner! So I guess that handing a midi and taking an audio file is not so legal after all!
It defenitely is legal. If any company would try to sue me, I'd gladly accept and have any halfway reasonable lawyer kick their butts big time.
See, if you go to a studio and record something, using a library which the studio has available, you are perfectly allowed to market, sell and do whatever with your recordings. Otherwise sample library companies would be out of business yesterday.
Carrying over a MIDI file to a studio is nothing else but having them record your work.

And, in the end, it's perfectly fitting the "only the owner can use the product" lines. Just that the owner is using it for what a studio is there: Making a recording of your stuff, regardless of what it is.

If things were any different, studios wouldn't be allowed to use *any* sample libraries, simply because it's, say, the keyboarder of the to-be-recorded band "using" the library.

I'm sure there's some sample library developers that *might* try to tell you things were different, but as said before, I'm 100% positive that such maneuvres won't hold any legal water in any court.

*ding ding!*

We have a winner, show 'im what he's won, Bob!

Meffy · Post by **Meffy** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:01 pm

Sascha Franck wrote:And, in the end, it's perfectly fitting the "only the owner can use the product" lines. Just that the owner is using it for what a studio is there: Making a recording of your stuff, regardless of what it is.

That's how I see it. You're not using the sample library, you're having its licensee use it to create an original work, supplying you with the resulting work. Otherwise it seems to me that nobody could ever use a sample library, or library-based rompler, to create music not credited to them personally.

Do you know someone who works in a studio that has sample libraries? If so, maybe you could ask him or her what legalities apply. Might just shrug and say "I dunno... I just play it." But it's worth a shot.

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:20 pm

It seems to me that this is a bit of a grey area... You aren't going into a studio to record your songs. You're sending a MIDI file to friend who has this plugin, and he's sending you a .wav file of the piano plugin playing that MIDI file. Yes, your friend is the only one using the plugin, but its also fairly obvious that your only aim is to circumvent having to purchase the plugin yourself, while getting a single audio track of your performace played by that plugin.

I suspect the plugin developers might have a problem with this. I'm not so sure they have a legal leg to stand on, but again, this seems like a borderline case. You aren't likely to wind up in legal trouble for this, so I suggest you look to your own moral compass and do what you think is right.

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:23 pm

Meffy wrote: Do you know someone who works in a studio that has sample libraries? If so, maybe you could ask him or her what legalities apply. Might just shrug and say "I dunno... I just play it." But it's worth a shot.

I know quite some folks doing just that, yes.
They would indeed just shrug. In other words: they don't care at all. And why should they?
As you said, it'd be completely senseless for any sort of studio (be it a hobbyist or top rate one) to license any sample library if they weren't allowed to actually use them for the very reasons they're being studios. Recording peoples stuff that is.

As said before, probably some EULAs are reading different, but then, I doubt anybody would ever care. And nobody should ever even care because it'd be the end of their business.

Legal Question