KVR Audio

stale bread · Post by **stale bread** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:31 pm

thanks for the tip AKJ, it's not that i can't export midi in beatcreator, its just the workflow ethic, you know, can't load beatcreator into a host, and it doesn't read mp3s, can't slice and map on the fly and then record your inspiration. but for just having a sample mangling session beatcreator is very nice, its chalk full of standstill features.

jones-y · Post by **jones-y** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:00 pm

My take: The main issue at play is the fact that when people (devs and most end users) think of 'loops' they think of the standard vanilla one bar drum loop or synth riff off of some sample CD.

Whereas the samplists see a loop as a snippet of audio of any length and amount of bars, consisting of several overlapping instruments/vocals.

The loop slicers on the market are all optimized for the former, and there is really nothing on the market targeted toward the latter (although Guru, for all its loopslicing shortcomings, comes closest). I guess they don't see us as musicians after all, stale...

As for the resistance (why do you need another slicer) I got the same thing as I made my request for a classic sampler emulation (any soundfont on the internet would sound better than a Mirage, etc.). As if people's way of working is the only way of working, and anything outside their realm is absurd...

What I would like:

-Map slices to MIDI notes (selectable auto or manual)
-Overlapping slices (audio-wise, not MIDI wise)
-user adjustable timestretch/pitchshift per slice
-the ability to map one slice over several keys (to transpose them up/down)
-arpeggiator (idea generator deluxe!!!)
-make it sound like an SP-1200 or an MPC-60

Add that to the feature set of pHATmatik, and you're golden!!!

kippertoffee · Post by **kippertoffee** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:14 am

This probably isn't what any of you are looking for.....

http://andreas.smartelectronix.com/inde ... &p=8&kat=0

But GOD DAMN its fun to play with. Get it sync'd up with a couple of ioplong's other vst's and go crazy.

pete.

stale bread · Post by **stale bread** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:03 pm

(->-)
0

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:13 pm

just spotted this ...
http://www.kvraudio.com/get/66.html
aint tried it out yet, but thought it looked interesting ... v.old school

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:35 pm

kippertoffee wrote: http://andreas.smartelectronix.com/inde ... &p=8&kat=0

Ioplongs plugs are all so cool ...

bermudagold · Post by **bermudagold** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:56 pm

what hosts are u guys using?.....in ableton live u can get pretty far.....u record from ur sound card line in right into an audio track(turntable,minisytem,cassette walkman,discman,ipod,mic, whatever) or drop an mp3 into ur audio track....highlight the part of the waveform you want to slice while listening to the loop,...copy n paste into an impulse pad slot ready to play via midi....only thing is you only have 8 pads so you can only play 8 slices independently at a time....but each of the eight midi keys can have infinite layers of different slices overlapping as you can just keep opening multiple instances of impulse, filling up each ones eight slots the same way as above from the same loop,..and arming them all to record at the same time....so you can still have as many slices from one loop as you want, u jus can only play 8 across by infinite down at a time....get me?....each slot has most editing parameters u could want except FX and individual timestretch within impulse....but if you route each pad/slot to an audio track....then u have FX and timestrech natively for each slice......seems like a big workaround but in practice is really pretty efficient and most old school i've seen....jus can get a lil messy track wise if you go slice crazy and dont label well.....my 2 cents

this looks like it may be up u cats alley....TRAKS....havent had time to give it a proper spin yet...hush hush...lol...and its free for now....most of this cats stuff is pretty original
http://www.sknote.it/download

monkeysan · Post by **monkeysan** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:47 pm

Sascha said:

GURU is coming pretty close to the idea of combining a slicer and a drum machine, but unfortunately the slicing isn't too hot at all - no manual control and such.

I'm in complete agreement with you here. If Angus would implement manual control over slicing, I'd be ecstatic. Even being able to see the beats that auto-slice generates and selecting by hand which ones get mapped where on the pads would be to die for. It would require a new interface component as far as I can see, however, which may be beyond his ambition for the program.

OTOH, I don't think GURU can be beat for either the level of control of the sequenced samples (God bless the offset graph, eg) or the MPC analogous pad mapping (simple even without using Auto). I'm just not crazy about the actual slicing algorithms, given the lack of control. I mostly slice elsewhere, but EVERYTHING I do slice gets sequenced in GURU.

shamann · Post by **shamann** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:52 pm

I think bermudagold's point shows why a lot of folk aren't especially vocal for new samplers: a lot of hosts already come with a whole lot of sampling functions.

Stuff like Live, FL, and Orion are already full-fledged samplers on their own. My main hosts are: Audiomulch, Bidule, and energyXT, with a little Live, Tracktion, VAZ Modular and Tunafish thrown in on the side. Add Sound Forge and Liveslice on top of that, that's a whole lot of sampling ability.

That said, personally I think there is still a lot of room for new sampling tools. I look at stuff like NI's samplers or Shortcircuit or Giga, all great for a fairly specific way of working with samples, but hardly inclusive and rarely useful for the samplist way of doing things on the fly.

I've always really liked jones-y's idea of a classic sampler emulation. Not sure it is entirely viable, but I'd really love to see somebody to try. Lots of folk spend a lot of time modelling the sound of a tube valve, is it such a crazy idea for at least one person to try modelling the sound of an old sampler?

One thing, though, I get tired of requests for the perfect this or that. To be honest, I don't want the perfect anything. I use Liveslice a lot, and I love it. I see a lot of folk requesting this feature from Phatmatic or that feature from Recycle, but that misses the point for me. I like where these kinds of tools take me, how I learn to work with their specific way of doing things rather than getting them to match my idea of how they should work. That's a lot of the charm of the old samplers, they weren't the perfect anything, but they had a unique thing going for them that gave you lots to work with.

For me, Liveslice is everything I want in a sampler/slicer. A lot can be done if you start using its arrangement slots like you would say the pads on an MPC. Start thinking of phrases as slices, you can layer short tracks per arrangement slot and trigger each arrangement slot via MIDI as though each one were a single hit. Two things it is maybe lacking is a lot of built-in character functions like effects, filters, and time/pitch shift, and file exporting. Both I think are on the to-do list (and both welcome but not essential to my mind). Of some of things mentioned in this thread, it doesn't allow you to map one sound to many keys. Not sure how Jacob would do that, but it would be cool.

For another sampler that samples, check out Devine Machine's Oneshot Recorder, a very cool thing if a little scant on extra sound mangling facilities(admittedly not its intended use anyway). On PC, there's also looper tools like Loopyllama and Zone Mobius which let you capture and save stuff, albeit aimed at looping live material rather than slicing.

stale bread · Post by **stale bread** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:52 am

the shamann ways in, who else has some must have ideas for a slicer

jones-y · Post by **jones-y** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:09 pm

Shamann, excellent points all around.

bermudagold, as an owner of Live 5 lite, I must say, I was absolutely clueless about that workflow... I'll hafta give it a try!!! Maybe Live will become my sampler??? Since Logic now does stereo rewire. Up until this point, I have used it to roll drum sequences, and prefab synthloops for use in Logic.

bermudagold · Post by **bermudagold** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:51 pm

dont get me wrong....all u guys requests would be cool in one plug...neat and tidy.....but i rarely have money for music so i just never was thinking of something like this for a next purchase....but i would love it if someone could get that sound too in one plug....all the warming plugs can take off the digital edge but it takes lots of approaches and lots of time tweaking and cpu cycles....i'm all about immediacy.....they need to emulate the ad/da converters of some classic samplers i guess....could you with bit reducers, compression, eq, and the analog warmer plugs (saturation{to mimic tape}, artificial harmonics{to mimic vinyl}, amplification overdrive{to mimic pre/power amps}, and delayed phase adjustment of left and right channels{to mimic hardware maximiser/exciters like BBE}; eventually accomplish this in a daw?.....maybe.....but people still choose rather than spend all that time, money, and clock cycles chasing that elusive sound when they can get it from an mpc or other hardware sampler instantly.......and lots of people want that sound,..can hear it in a blind test.....there is something psychoacoustically pleasing about it.....out of all the warmers i like amp overdrive the best....followed by the dynamic delayed phase adjustment....really subtle use of these works pretty good to me....not a big fan of saturators...most of them are waveshapers and give this metallic just about to clip sound i dont like....the artificial harmonics plugs are hit and miss...the more bands the better as too few and they are no where near subtle enough......by the way anybody try TRAKS from SKNOTE yet?

bermudagold · Post by **bermudagold** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:58 pm

oh yeah jones-y.....dont know the delta between live 5 and lite...so dont know...but the latest upgrade right now is like less than half retail i think....thats the way to do it....get lite with the purchase of a sound card which you would have to do starting out anyway, and upgrade....makes it way more attainable to the average cat....but you have logic...one of the big boys...everybody seems to say its the best all around...it must have some decent workarounds...no?

jones-y · Post by **jones-y** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:11 pm

bermudagold wrote:oh yeah jones-y.....dont know the delta between live 5 and lite...so dont know...but the latest upgrade right now is like less than half retail i think....thats the way to do it....get lite with the purchase of a sound card which you would have to do starting out anyway, and upgrade....makes it way more attainable to the average cat....but you have logic...one of the big boys...everybody seems to say its the best all around...it must have some decent workarounds...no?

The only difference, as I understand it, is the limit to only four audio tracks and four MIDI tracks, which are plenty for my needs (and the exclusion of the samples and loops that come with Live, and no option to get Operator - all of which I can live without). So I doubt I'll be upgrading, unless I decide at some point to switch totally...

Logic? Its awesome, and Apple loops are definitely a huge step in my direction, but there are plenty of areas lacking. Especially when dealing with manipulating samples and the like. No non-realtime effects in the sample editor is a glaring omission. So I can't for example select a part of a file and apply a reverb to it... And to make matters even worse, I can't even associate an external audio editor as my default editor...

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:23 pm

jones-y wrote: Logic? Its awesome, and Apple loops are definitely a huge step in my direction, but there are plenty of areas lacking. Especially when dealing with manipulating samples and the like. No non-realtime effects in the sample editor is a glaring omission. So I can't for example select a part of a file and apply a reverb to it... And to make matters even worse, I can't even associate an external audio editor as my default editor...

This is a true shame, especially since these issues exist since when I started using Logic.
It's been one of THE major complaints back in my betatester days and it still isn't any better (well, at least not much).
Other hosts offer non-destructive clip editing and whatever, let alone EVERY other host will allow you to use an external sample editor. Btw, there's been exactly ONE version of Logic that had this working (it has allways been a problem of "release files in background" or so), I think it's been 4.1 or 4.2. After those they f**ked it up royally again.
Really, for audio editing Logic has got to be the lousiest host on the market - by a wide margin even. Maybe they're thinking it's just not required because most audio editors for Macs are shit anyways (at least when you compare them to WaveLab or SoundForge). But in that case they should offer a better internal editor that actually works as supposed (which it never did).

Samplist Unite and Be Heard :) We Need A Super Slicer