Any tips on switching from Cubase SX3 to Sonar 5PE?

[monkeymanx]

I thought this would be alot easier, but I'm sort of regretting selling Cubase SX3 and picking up Sonar 5PE, especially since you are pretty much bound to it once you buy it.

Anybody have any advice on doing the drum maps and using the piano roll to edit drum tracks. The drum editor in SX3 was very nice, but the one in Sonar doesn't seem as easy to use. Whenever I switch to something like 16th notes, it still shows the 4 bars within the measure instead of the individual 16th note grids like it did in SX3.

Also, I noticed the VSTi DFHS loads up odd. I had to use the rewire client to get it to work right.

I do like the V-Vocal too though and a couple of the other effects. The CPU usage seems a bit better too. I'm not sure what I've gotten myself into here.

[monkeymanx]

Another quick question here, will the plug ins that came with Sonar work in Cubase? Mainly V-Vocal? I may just rebuy Cubase SX3.

[aallvor]

Just gotta ask, why did you switch in the first place?

[monkeymanx]

I have gone from desktop to laptop and basically wanted to get away from the dongle. I also really wanted the V-Vocal tool.

[Bradster]

Hi monkeymanx,

I've never used Cubase so I can't give you an apples-to-apples comparison, but I can offer some SONAR insight.

On the drum map piano roll view there is a grid lines button (third from the right across the top). Use the small down-pointing arrow to set the Grid Lines density to a specific musical time (quarter, eighth, etc.). There is an option to "follow snap settings" but I can't seem to get it not to be grayed out. Might be a bug.

Don't have the DFHS plug, but VST's and especially VSTi's can be quirky in the VST Adapter. This is really the Achilles heel of SONAR (and Project 5). You can manipulate settings in the adapter that can often compensate for these quirks. Might be worthwhile checking with DFHS support for some tips.

On a positive note, Cake releases several free updates to the adapter each year and it is steadily improving. This is as much a case of Steiny owning and controlling the VST "standard" so they'll always have the upper hand with host implementations. A page right out of the Micro$oft playbook.

V-Vocal is very powerful indeed, but the trade-off is that there's a substantial learning curve (of which I'm still in the foothills!). But the people that are into it seem to be really pleased.

The Sonitus suite as well as Perfect Space all work in other apps (Sonitus is DX-only, PS is VST-only). None of the Lexicon stuff works however outside of SONAR, not even in Project 5. This is likely to do with licensing restrictions. V-Vocal is integrated into SONAR and isn't really a plug-in of the general sense so can't be used outside of SONAR AFAIK.


You might also check into the SONAR forum over on Cakewalk.com. There's lots of useful information (including several Cubase Vs. SONAR threads) and some helpful members. There's also a couple of a**holes. You just have to weed through to find the good stuff…kind of like KVR.

HTH

[bduffy]

On a positive note, Cake releases several free updates to the adapter each year and it is steadily improving. This is as much a case of Steiny owning and controlling the VST "standard" so they'll always have the upper hand with host implementations. A page right out of the Micro$oft playbook.

I think that's an overly cynical viewpoint. Steinberg developed VST as an open format (notice all the free VST stuff?. It's up to the host developer to use the VST implementation or not. When Sonar came out, it was pretty obvious the plan was to develop DirectX FX and instruments as direct competition to Steinberg's VST - you coudn't run VST in Sonar without buying a 3rd-party adapter - they didn't want you to use VSTi in Sonar. They could have made a choice, right then and there, to get on board the ASIO/VST wagon, (which they eventually have) and did not. Of course, VST had a huge headstart and DXi did't catch on as a real alternative to VST.

So, if anything, it's just the notion of competition that's kept Sonar behind. I don't think it's terribly conspiratorial or anything.

[monkeymanx]

Bradstar do you know if you can create say, a bar that is just one measure say 4/4 and edit the midi? That is how cubase works, so you could make a good drum beat and just copy and paste the midi bar(measure). Sonar doesn't seem to work that way, it looks like you have to edit the whole tune, not just small sections. So you actually have to copy the midi notes instead of a bar.

Maybe I'm just to used to Cubase to use Sonar... Which sucks because now I have Sonar and for some reason they don't allow transfers. I don't understand the reasoning behind that.

[arke]

On a positive note, Cake releases several free updates to the adapter each year and it is steadily improving. This is as much a case of Steiny owning and controlling the VST "standard" so they'll always have the upper hand with host implementations. A page right out of the Micro$oft playbook.

I think that's an overly cynical viewpoint. Steinberg developed VST as an open format (notice all the free VST stuff?. It's up to the host developer to use the VST implementation or not. When Sonar came out, it was pretty obvious the plan was to develop DirectX FX and instruments as direct competition to Steinberg's VST - you coudn't run VST in Sonar without buying a 3rd-party adapter - they didn't want you to use VSTi in Sonar. They could have made a choice, right then and there, to get on board the ASIO/VST wagon, (which they eventually have) and did not. Of course, VST had a huge headstart and DXi did't catch on as a real alternative to VST.

So, if anything, it's just the notion of competition that's kept Sonar behind. I don't think it's terribly conspiratorial or anything.

Actually, its because the VST standard isn't completely clear on some things which causes these incompatibilities. Surely you've seen rants by Tony Tony Chopper, or brambos, about just how much you have to implement dirty hacks to get most of the plugins to work.

I guess its still not an excuse since FL loads almost every plugin out there and the Cakewalk VST adapter doesn't, but still. It loads all the VST plugs I regularly use (although I don't use Sonar unless I'm at my dads).

Regarding the switch itself ... Sonar loads up much faster than Cubase does. Which is important for me because when I have an idea I don't have time to wait for my host. FL loads up in 2 seconds, then it takes me another 3 seconds to load up some VSTi and I can play away. If I had Cubase that took one to 5 minutes to load up each time, I could pretty much forget instant inspiration.

[JerGoertz]

Bradstar do you know if you can create say, a bar that is just one measure say 4/4 and edit the midi? That is how cubase works, so you could make a good drum beat and just copy and paste the midi bar(measure). Sonar doesn't seem to work that way, it looks like you have to edit the whole tune, not just small sections. So you actually have to copy the midi notes instead of a bar.

Maybe I'm just to used to Cubase to use Sonar... Which sucks because now I have Sonar and for some reason they don't allow transfers. I don't understand the reasoning behind that.

It sounds like you're talking about making a MIDI clip that's 1-bar long? You can do that in Sonar. It's been so long since I used it seriously that I forget how, though.

[monkeymanx]

Yea... Just a bar that you can select a length, say 1 bar, or 2 or whatever... It makes drum editing easy. In Cubase you just take the pencil tool and draw in a bar(event) and just start editing. Reading through the manual I didn't really seem to say anything about it. If anybody knows how to do this, I would really apreciate the info.

[MojoChopper]

Unfortunately, Sonar will not let you create empty midi clips. You have to add some midi to the piano roll first and Sonar creates the clip around it in the track view.

The piano roll (and the drump map) in Sonar knows nothing of clip boundaries - clips only really exists on the track view.

Mojo Chopper

[Bradster]

Yeah, what Mojo said.

Once you enter MIDI data via the PR, you cut the single track into clips using the scissors tool or Edit -> Split. You can then move or copy the individual clips as well as edit them at any time in the piano roll (which updates instantly when you change the arrangement in the track view). It sounds like basically the opposite of Cubase. As long as you have the concepts down (which it sounds like you do), it just becomes a question of learning a new way of doing it. And is seems there's always a new way of doing it.

There's also the concept of a MIDI Groove Clip that behaves like an audio loop. It maintains tempo and key information and can be easily repeated back-to-back. Once you define a MIDI clip, CTRL + L toggles the Groove clip property.

With the plethora of books and DVD tutorials, I'm surprised there's no "SONAR for Cubase Users" title. Hello? Scott Garragis?

[superddman]

I know how you feel Monkeymanx. Sonar is like a different world. To me, everything seems awkward. I tried really really really hard but could not adapt to it. Hopefully you can.

[monkeymanx]

I don't think I'll be able to adapt to it. The interface just isn't comfortable for me. So I guess its back to Cubase, sucks because I have to rebuy it and use a damn dongle. I guess I can use Sonar for Vocal editing and such. I wish Cakewalk would allow sales.

[bduffy]

I don't think I'll be able to adapt to it. The interface just isn't comfortable for me. So I guess its back to Cubase, sucks because I have to rebuy it and use a damn dongle. I guess I can use Sonar for Vocal editing and such. I wish Cakewalk would allow sales.

Hint: as a Sonar owner, you qualify for the crossgrade offer, about half-price. And look out for sales here in the Market Place; seems like someone's selling Cubase every week!