Sonic Reality

janka · Post by **janka** » Thu May 04, 2006 10:34 am

I'd like to see IK/SR take a shot at a serious B3-plugin. Samplebased instead of like the NI B4-emulation. A sampled Leslie seems to be the only way to get an authentic sound. I really liked the USB Charlie, but I bet IK/SR can do better than that... Namesuggestion (hehehe): ORGANIK

/Janka

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu May 04, 2006 10:39 am

janka wrote:A sampled Leslie seems to be the only way to get an authentic sound.

I disagree.

janka · Post by **janka** » Thu May 04, 2006 10:43 am

Do you know any good Leslie-emulations? In my opinion the B4-leslie sucks. It's ok if you push the overdrive to eleven, but on a clean sound it really sounds bad imo.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu May 04, 2006 11:17 am

janka wrote:Do you know any good Leslie-emulations? In my opinion the B4-leslie sucks. It's ok if you push the overdrive to eleven, but on a clean sound it really sounds bad imo.

http://www.nubi3.com/

pj geerlings · Post by **pj geerlings** » Thu May 04, 2006 5:45 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:http://www.nubi3.com/

Thanks ( again

)

janka wrote:... A sampled Leslie seems to be the only way to get an authentic sound...

While it is certainly possible to "sample a Leslie" it is not the same as sampling a Hammond and a Leslie - there are four asyncronous things happening: (1) a random group of frequencies (keys press events mapped into drawbar registrations) is (2) split into two different frequency bands which are (3) output into an upper rotor and a (4) lower rotor. Now try sample a reasonable set of the possible combinations of the useful notes in a complete set of the drawbar configurations of the upper and lower rotors - I'm bettin' it's not gonna happen in our lifetime ...

Add to this - as if I needed to

- the rotor speed ramps are very cool but cannot be sampled effectively <period>

That said, it is possible to get a set of impulse responses from a Leslie cabinet upper rotor and use this to model the system. In fact this research has already been done by the ever popular J.O.Smith - but - that does not actually produce the pure magic of a Leslie speaker. You just gotta be in the same room with the beast for that

Failing that, you might want to try out SpinnerLE - it is pretty darn good if I do say so myself

peace,
pj

janka · Post by **janka** » Thu May 04, 2006 6:01 pm

sorry, I meant sampling an organ run through a leslie... USB Charlie was a good idea, going from slow to fast by crossfading between two sets of samples. Great idea. Wish it could have been a little more dirty-sounding though.

/Janka

Squids · Post by **Squids** » Fri May 05, 2006 1:34 am

It is always nice to get a really good Leslie sim plug. I thought the B4 one was decent. Nothing beats the real thing though. I miss my L147 and actually I am buying it back from a friend I sold it to years ago. The grit, the grundge... a beautiful thing!

There are some interesting things though that can be done with a real Leslie sample and IK's Stretch.

Anyway, we've sampled a lot of vintage keyboards and only a portion of them have been released. So, more Hammond samples ARE coming. Maybe not as a CHARLIE but... well, you'll see!

You know they had another product called "Angel"? I guess they cancelled it. It was supposed to be Church organs. Hence Angel. But... Charlie's Angels is I suppose why it is called Charlie. Hmmmm. I scored a TV show once that had Cheryl Ladd in it! In fact, just to amuse myself I did some cues purposely ripping off 70's Charlie's Angels "suspense before commercial". Got away with it a few times. Maybe I will do an organ plug-in called "Cheryl". (no, I wouldn't)

Good luck with Nubi3 PJ.

pj geerlings · Post by **pj geerlings** » Fri May 05, 2006 2:23 pm

Squids wrote:...Good luck with Nubi3 PJ.

Thanks!

Megakazbek · Post by **Megakazbek** » Sat May 06, 2006 9:46 am

There's one huge disadvantage of samples when they're used to replicate an instrument such as B3 organ. It is absolutely impossible to sample any kind of overdrive/distortion because of non-linearity of these effects. Sampled overdrive will sound ok on single notes, but if you try to play two notes at a time it will sound nowhere near the real thing. So, any authentic overdriven organ sound cannot even theoretically be based only on samples, overdrive must be modeled and since it's placed before the leslie, the leslie must be modeled too, not sampled.

Squids · Post by **Squids** » Sat May 06, 2006 2:32 pm

I agree to a certain extent. The theory is correct. But, since samples are recordings of the real thing sometimes the character of that, even with the loss of the interaction of multiple notes through ONE overdriven preamp and speaker, can still sound really nice in the track! There ARE cases where a sampled overdriven leslie B3 sounds better in a track than a simulated one. However, what beats all of this is... THE REAL THING! The ultimate thing is to just GET a Leslie if you can. The next best thing would be a REALLY good simulator that considers all aspects such as mic modeling, pre-amp modeling, speaker sim, cabinet and the "voodoo factor" of whatever else there is about it! Then after that it is pick and choose between really good samples or decent emulation in a modeled one (the B4 for example is decent, I'd maybe use it in a track... but not necessarily over my samples...depends), especially if the thing that matters is how it sounds in a track.

Megakazbek · Post by **Megakazbek** » Sat May 06, 2006 7:15 pm

I agree that sampled overdrive can sound very nice in the track or even by itself. But it wouldn't be an "authentic B3 organ sound", the real thing just behaves differently. There are also some playing techniques that require a properly behaving overdrive, like holding an additional note in high or low register to get more dirty feeling to a part.

Squids · Post by **Squids** » Sun May 07, 2006 2:09 am

Sure. Also samples don't allow you to do real time drawbar things as well. But, the important thing is that it is useful and also convenient. It's a snapshot of a great B3 and Leslie in a certain time and place. With some of the cool things like Stretch that Leslie speed can even be re-animated quite well. But, sims get u closer to the drawbar perfomance things and as for Leslie simulation... well, if one goes to the trouble of modeling all aspects of it then the results could potentially be GREAT! But, nothing like the real thing. That is why I am buying my Leslie 147 back with the tube pre-amp.

Still though... whatever is useful in people's music should not be forgotten (not to mention affordable, convenient, inspiring etc.) And that leads us back to the interest in the request of this thread. It makes sense... and we'll still be releasing sampled organs. You know, not just B3s either but Vox, Farfisa, Lowrey and all kinds!

harmony gardens · Post by **harmony gardens** » Sun May 07, 2006 3:08 am

there's also theater organs, and pipe organs,,,,

did you ever think of an organ capsule squids??

Squids · Post by **Squids** » Sun May 07, 2006 9:44 pm

harmony gardens wrote:there's also theater organs, and pipe organs,,,,

did you ever think of an organ capsule squids??

Not sure if we're doing more capsules. But, they will be in the Infinite Instrument series which goes a step further in size of instruments etc. Yes, there's Theatre Organs, Pipe Organs, Pump Organs and you name it. "Sample Everything"

harmony gardens · Post by **harmony gardens** » Sun May 07, 2006 10:17 pm

Squids wrote:
harmony gardens wrote:there's also theater organs, and pipe organs,,,,

did you ever think of an organ capsule squids??
Not sure if we're doing more capsules. But, they will be in the Infinite Instrument series which goes a step further in size of instruments etc. Yes, there's Theatre Organs, Pipe Organs, Pump Organs and you name it. "Sample Everything"

Ooooo, that sounds nice, too!

Sonic Reality

KVR Audio

Organik