Realistic Guitar Tones / Rigs ...

[Hink]

tone comes from the guitar and ultimately the player a fair bit imho, tone is important and knowledge of what goes into that tone is important, no doubt...but I'd rather hear a great guitar player through a crap amp than a crap guitar player through a great amp with awesome tone...

[championrabbit]

I'm a very good guitarist

That's nice, dear.

Anyway.

What is 'good tone'? People talk about 'it' as if we all know what 'it' sounds like, but in fact if we all coughed-up a sample of 'it', they'd all be significantly different. Frisell, Hendrix, Townsend, Bob Mould, Dave Pajo, VaiTrianiSteen, Jeff Beck, Black Flag...somebody somewhere considers each of these to epitomise 'it'.

Husker Du blew the doors off rock and roll in the 80s with guitars that sounded like...shit. Would their records sound better with Jeff Beck's 'good tone'? Obviously not.

Napalm Death changed the face of metal forever with guitars that sounded like...death. Nobody would have welcomed that sound from an amp-sim prior the ND.

I think these discussions would be more fruitful if people simply admitted that they want to sound like Hendrix/Zappa/Cobain or whatever and stopped implying that there is a universally shared concept of 'good tone' when there clearly isn't.

[Jason Brian Merrill]

i think there are ppl that are way too obsessed with tone -- perhaps to cover up their lack of creativity, who knows.

[championrabbit]

i think there are ppl that are way too obsessed with tone -- perhaps to cover up their lack of creativity, who knows.

I really think you're right to an extent. The sheer number of people who are intent on recreating the guitar sounds of 30 years ago it...well...indicative of a lack of imagination.

Guitarists are largely an ultra-conservative bunch of dullards; it's ironic to consider that this level of conservatism is championed in the name of Rock and Roll.

[Jason Brian Merrill]

well said.

[Hanglow]

I was trying Guitar Rig 2 a couple of weeks ago on my brothers setup, and decided to try and make a bunch of presets based on some well known guitarists. I did about ten, from eric clapton to zack wylde, using the GR equivalents of their setups and only one sounded slightly close, which was the zack wylde one, and that was after a bit of tweaking. I came to the conclusion that it was a bit pointless to do this, especially as I have a very basic guitar (fenix strat copy) and am somewhat, erm, limited in ability It's much more fun to try and get a good sound that suites your own playing style and guitar.

I was quite impressed with the crunchy tones I was able to get, and have also been impressed with the guitar suite plugins, considering they are free. at the end of the day I was putting the GS tube screamer before guitar rig and getting some good results.

I certainly wouldn't buy GR to replace a good harware amp, but as a general effects unit I think it's pretty good.

[Sascha Franck]

Nice post, championrabbit, pretty much spot on.

Just as an example: When I started playing, I had an absolutely cheesy setup. Guitar for 100 german marks (new!), amp for 200, stuff like that. Regarding "good" tones, it seemed to be exactly the opposite.
Now, just recently I listened to some absolutely f**ked up cassette recording of my first "band" (just 2 guitar players and a drummer) in the rehearsal room. And while everything was just disgusting (lousy playing, just some dudes noodling but miserably failing at that, no groove, worst overall sound ever...) I was freaking amazed by that guitar sound. It had a somewhat trashy quality to it that I will *never* be able to get out of any other amp ever again it seems - be it a real analog one, a digital one or a computerized version of the latter. And while sounding trashy, it seemed to cut through everything very well, without exactly going on your nerves.
So much about "good" tones.

And of course (stating the horribly obvious): after all it's all in your hands. During the last 1-2 decades I have always been able to get a useful tone out of everything I owned, even if it was something I thought of being shitty. Usually you just don't realize these things until you've sold your old rig in favour of something new.

Oh yeah, sure, when talking about "role model" sounds, things become entirely different.
And that's probably the very problem of all these sound debates (and it applies to the myriads of the "best analog sounding VST" threads as well).
I'm guilty of it as well. Sure, I *do* wish I could get a Plexi riff sound out of, say, Guitar Rig 2. And I defenitely lust after some dumble-alike lead tone, too. But that might be a mistake. I can surely get some kickass sounds out of GR2 - as soon as I stop to think about reproducing a given "role model". You just gotta accept that this is "digital wonderland" - so why not take advance of that "digital" sound? So far, if you *really, really* want an anlog "role model" sound all that badly, I'm afraid the analog solution is still the only way to go. It might become different one day. There might be the one-size-fits-all amp sim at one point (at least I'm almost sure there will be), but so far this just doesn't seem to be the case.
Sometimes this is a true drawback (or at least disillusioning): Analog stuff is expensive, not easy to capture, tough to carry around, etc..., digital stuff just sounding digital, introducing latencies of whatever sort, etc...
But then, whenever I carry my Mark IV setup with me, I am rewarded with a tone which is *exactly* the tone I wanted when I bought it. And the same is sort of true for the digital stuff I own and (ab)use as well. I am rewarded with the flexibility of the digital realm. Now I just gotta learn to take advance of the digital sound characteristics as well. But hey, I already do so.
Bottomline (again stating the obvious): Use whatever you have and take advance of what it offers.

[Jason Brian Merrill]

have to say, nice post again, this time to sascha!!!!

very true points.

[susiwong]

i think there are ppl that are way too obsessed with tone -- perhaps to cover up their lack of creativity, who knows.

Jason, I respectfully disagree completely.
Your tone is your voice as a guitar player, sure, the bigger part is in your hands and mind, but still, guitar and amp / FX do make a big difference.
Most great guitar players are very picky about their equipment and use stuff that fits their playing style perfectly.
So why shouldn't we smaller giants care about what we use, too ?
Sure, it doesn't have to be the same stuff some other player uses, but I personally feel using certain equipment helps me do a better job.
Sure, I could play any gig on any tuneable budget guitar and a Behringer amp, but why on earth should I ?
I believe my audience deserves the best I can give to them, and tone is one part of the equation. If anybody in the audience notices the difference is another story. At least I've done my job properly.
Have a nice day, susiwong

[Hink]

susiwong, you remember a time that I remember well...but it seems many younger people aren't aware of this...before sims came along, before PODs, even before Sansamps it's quite true that the catch phrase (with tubes or solidstate) was "sounds just like a Marshall". Also back then Marshall wasn't doing well, they were one sound amps and often Marshall owners became labeled as well. Marshall tried the lame hybrid, they tried the mosfet, and then the use of diodes in the Valvestates to act like a tube...tbh I think that the Valvestates saved Marshall from extinction. But in the 80's JCM 800s and Plexis were cheap used at any store. I bought my Plexi head for 350 bux and I chose it over an 800 at another store (but the 800 was 50 watts) at the same price.

It seems too me that the thought of simulating a Marshall wasn't the intent. Instead the amps were designed (or they wanted us to believe so anyhow) to sound like a Marshall and then some. Two channel amps became all the rage and unlike the in the past Marshall was not at the fore front of that technology, in fact they had to catch up with it. The thing is I'm not sure if sim is completely accurate here. I think they were trying harder to come up with a more efficient way to get that same distortion as tubes. Face it, pre-amp tubes run cooler and are far more stable than power tubes. In fact after putting Groove Tubes in my Plexi I hated it, several clubs couldn't handle our light show and PA, so my Marshall suffered severe frequency loss anyhow.

Of course other companies (like Laney) were trying to expand on tube amps versatility. The end result was multichannel tube amps. But there were some solid states that were not trying to simulate anything, like the JC120. I remember there was a guitar player I knew then, not a likable chap by any means who really put down my stack as garbage (I used Hi watt cabs) with my plexi and my boogie. I'll never forget him insisting that he indeed did have the best amp made...a JC120. Of course it was a mighty fine amp indeed, but it was known for it's innovative approach to being squeaky clean. The funny thing was that this guy didn't play clean like I would expect, he actually played metal (well metal for that era)...I almost died when he plugged a DODfx55 into it for distortion (later he bought a grunge)... But that's okay, he threw in the towel...

My point is "sim" is just a marketing term because solid states took a beating then. Like you say there were a few that were different...the Polytone was like a moped, no wanted to admit liking them, but that little cube packed a lot of punch, the GK did better, the Mouse had a special purpose all it's own....but still they carried the solid state tag....at that time I was tubes and nothing but tubes.

I really wish the companies would shy away from the modeling concept. With my PODs I don't care what model it is, I really care about what tone has the dynamics I like to get my sound for that song. Back with my stacks and o.d. the white noise was brutal and often it cut into my ability to squeal at will (the one and only reason I never went wireless than too). But I can achieve sounds today with far more clarity then back in the day, and though there is hiss it doesn't eat your tone (I hated gates then).

So like you, I have lived with "sounds just like..." for far too long...I wish they would stop with the model thing...I would like to see companies coming out saying things like "new technology in amplification"...because I have played through so many originals and I would be lying if I said I want to go back...I don't...the Plexi wasn't that good of an amp by today's standards imo, I hate to burst anyone's bubbles...but until mine was modded with a master and the cali-hotrod it was dull and lifeless (unless I turned it way up), the tone controls were a joke and it wasn't suitable for clean playing at all. My Boogie was better, but still quite limited. But if you ask me, one sound amps were not very inspirational at all, but a Marshall stack seemed to command respect (Like a Les Paul).


So I don't see solid state as meaning sim...20 years ago I would of said the opposite, but it really is just a different approach that was poorly marketed. But I have not found a pluggin based sim that has the character I like...but my POD xt live does have a lot of character, it's quite responsive to my playing style and variations, but also it's quite consistent...I know that it will sound the same everyday...my tube amps did not. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the use of a vari-arc on an amp came from trying to keep a consistent power supply to those monster transformers, and the over the top sound was discovered as a result.

So if that's what we're calling sims so be it, I like sims ...but not all sims as I have stated. But I do wish I could go on with life without hearing "it sounds just like..." ever again. There's a lot of good songs in my PODs, and my tweak time is minimal...

sorry or the long quote, but I read this after I posted and I think it mirrors the sentiment here...I like Sascha's use of "Role Model", I think too many guitarists are wanting to be their idol instead of being themselves...for me it's about the sound of the strings...not the gear used to get there...

[Killvehicle]

i think there are ppl that are way too obsessed with tone -- perhaps to cover up their lack of creativity, who knows.

I also have to disagree, The objective of anyone is to find thier sound, So finding "tone" can be an exhaustive search for some, although if that is all one is concerned about then your statement fits. I mean I just bought a cheap little practice amp for home, and it took me a little while to get the sound I want out od the little bugger, I had to mod a few pedals and now I am happy, And I probably wont mess with it for quite a while, Hell I have owned my main rig for over 10 years now and havent changed a thing with my set-up,(aside from lowering or upping the gain or perhaps an eq in the FX loop to please my ear on that day) some may say I havent evolved, I say I like the sound, why change, , I can get blues, straight up Death metal and everything in between, although I am happy that I am now able to have a JCM 800 at my disposal to use whenever I want as well,, BUt with a mod Boss SD-1 it almost sounds exactly like my 5150, so maybe I havent changed at all..

[Hink]

i think there are ppl that are way too obsessed with tone -- perhaps to cover up their lack of creativity, who knows.

I also have to disagree, The objective of anyone is to find thier sound, So finding "tone" can be an exhaustive search for some, although if that is all one is concerned about then your statement fits. I mean I just bought a cheap little practice amp for home, and it took me a little while to get the sound I want out od the little bugger, I had to mod a few pedals and now I am happy, And I probably wont mess with it for quite a while, Hell I have owned my main rig for over 10 years now and havent changed a thing with my set-up,(aside from lowering or upping the gain or perhaps an eq in the FX loop to please my ear on that day) some may say I havent evolved, I say I like the sound, why change, , I can get blues, straight up Death metal and everything in between, although I am happy that I am now able to have a JCM 800 at my disposal to use whenever I want as well,, BUt with a mod Boss SD-1 it almost sounds exactly like my 5150, so maybe I havent changed at all..

my sound has changed over 35 years constantly, I am no longer a one sounding guitarist...to say you haven't changed at all in ten years in my opinion is kinda sad...if you don't mind staying in one place all your life then that's cool...but it doesn't hold true for everyone...I liked playing with my erector set when I was young too...I guess I could of stayed there, but I grew and eventually became a machinist...why change? Because we grow...this is not an attack KV, but why don't you want to grow?

I believe you need different sounds for different styles, I use to limit myself...but why would I want to limit my creativity because I don't want to change my sound? Not to mention that ear fatigue sets in and it's like an addiction, once you build up that tolerance you need more. The more you learn the better off you are imho...but I have to be quite honest, if I didn't evolve I would give up, and I certainly would not brag about not evolving...especially if I said

I bet you more than the majority of people here would agree everything sounds the same and its time we get back to some originality in recording.

isn't that a tad contradictory?

and before you say it I'm not trashing your music, but the two statements do not seem to fit each other very well imo. I know you're not going to tell me that the 5150 is a super versatile amp, it wasn't designed to be and frankly it isn't (and that comes from PK training with Peavey).

[Jason Brian Merrill]

i still stand by my statement

shut up and play yer guitar

[Hink]

FWIW Jason is 100% correct imo and I was guilty of it for years myself...we hide our shortcomings behind a guise that of "it's not my sound"...but some people actually find that as a challenge, not an excuse...I play guitar...not an amp and I have many shortcomings, the best part of playing is overcoming those shortcomings and doing away with excuses. If I can't play something it's my fault and my problem and has nothing to do with my gear...

[Hink]

i still stand by my statement

shut up and play yer guitar

I'm not disagreeing with you...