Waves Over Priced? Maybe - Maybe not...

[bobby yarrow]

2 things:

1. I run a 3200+ on my main machine, a second machine via FXTeleport, 2 UAD-1's, a poco, and I still run out of cpu overhead in almost every mix. It's true that if I had a dual-core, I wouldn't, but then FX makers will presumably continue to make plugins take advantage of whatever new resources we get, right?

2. UAD-1 is easy. Worst case, the card is a dongle. The thing that makes poco especially frustrating is that I don't like any of the stock plugins very much, and the sony add-ons are outrageously expensive.

[bobby yarrow]

And yes, I was feeling lucky that RME HDSP 9632 I have worked on a new NForce4 motherboard with AMD X2. However, at some point it started to crackle like mad for some unknown reason - I had to make full reformat, and then it started working again.

I really take comfort in the fact that even you have mystery crackle problems that require reformatting. Not that I wish it on you, but makes me feel like it's not my fault . . .

[ericj23]

There is a driver conflict between the powercore pci and all AMD X2 processors on (almost) all motherboards. As I use AMD on my main DAW, I'm forced to choose between using my powercore pci or using a dual-core processor. It's amazing that TC Elec hasn't gotten around to making their product compatible with something as common (and old) as dual-core AMD chips, but they haven't. Maybe if I'd been paying them $40 a year . . .

Maybe they just can't do anything about it without replacing the whole PCI card? That happens everywhere with PCI cards of all types I believe. It is just more of a pity when a pretty expensive card does not work with a new hardware. If it was a simple network card I would just throw it away and purchase another model.

And yes, I was feeling lucky that RME HDSP 9632 I have worked on a new NForce4 motherboard with AMD X2. However, at some point it started to crackle like mad for some unknown reason - I had to make full reformat, and then it started working again.

I've got two Poco Elements gathering dust on my shelf because they won't work on my system. TC admitted that the start up times of many PC's are too quick for the cards to initialise properly. Unless I change my mobo then the cards will not work and if I do buy a new mobo who knows if it will work? It's an expensive lottery. Then there's the problem with 'dead' cards that have to be sent back.

Check out the unofficial Poco forum and read about the large number of people who have experienced these problem but have received no help from TC.

In contrast I've had no problems with my UAD-1 and I really like their plugins. So some DSP can be useful.

Having said that, with the ever increasing power of cpu's I'd never buy another DSP card. Especially not from TC. I warn everyone to stay away from TC because they are completely unaccountable for their products which is a disgrace. DSP cards are a waste of money nowdays unless you really must have the plugins that come with the card.

i know your just recounting your problems and they must be very frustrating but ....

saying that lots of people have these problems based on the numbers moaning at a very quiet forum is just not sense. People who have no problems don't go to forums to say it is working - they just got on with it - I have two powercores which have never given me the slightest bit of a problem (apart from not liking my EMU card - but that was EMU's issue) - it's just the nature of computer set-ups - somethings don't work well in some configurations -

I thought the mother board thing was quite solveable tho - almost all bios'es have the ability to go for a full ram check on startup - now this takes a while if you've got 2 gigs of ram but your powercores will work perfectly

look at the biggest thread on that powercore forum called working powercore set-ups - you'll find a good list of the possible motherboards for your processor -the amd x2 difficulties are obviously frustrating for those on the cutting edge but threads full of peoplpe throwing away there $1000 poewrcores because they dont work with their $600 processor and motherboard combinations is really oddly funny - surely buying a cheap intel x2 (which work perfectly) and selling it once tc's amd drivers work would make more sense

But ultimately dsp cards are dongles - always have been in my eyes - they allow you to use plug-ins - use FX freeze with powercore (and i assume UAD) and you can get unlimited uses too

a native quality vss3 is not here yet - and I am sure some of the uad plugs are amazing too

[bugs]

What about the PowerCore DSP card with Dual Opteron dual cores? Are there problems there too?

[Amberience]

There is a driver conflict between the powercore pci and all AMD X2 processors on (almost) all motherboards. As I use AMD on my main DAW, I'm forced to choose between using my powercore pci or using a dual-core processor. It's amazing that TC Elec hasn't gotten around to making their product compatible with something as common (and old) as dual-core AMD chips, but they haven't. Maybe if I'd been paying them $40 a year . . .

Maybe they just can't do anything about it without replacing the whole PCI card? That happens everywhere with PCI cards of all types I believe. It is just more of a pity when a pretty expensive card does not work with a new hardware. If it was a simple network card I would just throw it away and purchase another model.

And yes, I was feeling lucky that RME HDSP 9632 I have worked on a new NForce4 motherboard with AMD X2. However, at some point it started to crackle like mad for some unknown reason - I had to make full reformat, and then it started working again.

I've got two Poco Elements gathering dust on my shelf because they won't work on my system. TC admitted that the start up times of many PC's are too quick for the cards to initialise properly. Unless I change my mobo then the cards will not work and if I do buy a new mobo who knows if it will work? It's an expensive lottery. Then there's the problem with 'dead' cards that have to be sent back.

Check out the unofficial Poco forum and read about the large number of people who have experienced these problem but have received no help from TC.

In contrast I've had no problems with my UAD-1 and I really like their plugins. So some DSP can be useful.

Having said that, with the ever increasing power of cpu's I'd never buy another DSP card. Especially not from TC. I warn everyone to stay away from TC because they are completely unaccountable for their products which is a disgrace. DSP cards are a waste of money nowdays unless you really must have the plugins that come with the card.

i know your just recounting your problems and they must be very frustrating but ....

saying that lots of people have these problems based on the numbers moaning at a very quiet forum is just not sense. People who have no problems don't go to forums to say it is working - they just got on with it - I have two powercores which have never given me the slightest bit of a problem (apart from not liking my EMU card - but that was EMU's issue) - it's just the nature of computer set-ups - somethings don't work well in some configurations -

I thought the mother board thing was quite solveable tho - almost all bios'es have the ability to go for a full ram check on startup - now this takes a while if you've got 2 gigs of ram but your powercores will work perfectly

look at the biggest thread on that powercore forum called working powercore set-ups - you'll find a good list of the possible motherboards for your processor -the amd x2 difficulties are obviously frustrating for those on the cutting edge but threads full of peoplpe throwing away there $1000 poewrcores because they dont work with their $600 processor and motherboard combinations is really oddly funny - surely buying a cheap intel x2 (which work perfectly) and selling it once tc's amd drivers work would make more sense

But ultimately dsp cards are dongles - always have been in my eyes - they allow you to use plug-ins - use FX freeze with powercore (and i assume UAD) and you can get unlimited uses too

a native quality vss3 is not here yet - and I am sure some of the uad plugs are amazing too

A DSP card is in no way shape or form similar or could ever be likened to a dongle. You're whole post is bullshit.

[ericj23]

the phrase whatever springs into my head

I really worry that you cant see in what way dsp cards are like dongles

but in truth i dont worry that much - people have different points of views - yours is just very differnt

[bduffy]

Yeah, I wonder why the Deunde is modelled after the C200, whereas the Waves is modelled after the 4000 G series. I understand that the 4000 is more common to music studios, whereas the C200 is more common to broadcast...why wouldn't they have modelled the more "musical" desk? (I do understand the Deunde Stereo Bus Compressor is modelled after the 4000 G, however).

No, you've got it a bit up side down. The plugins are not modelled. They are exact copies of the C-series channel effects. Identical code, and for the C-series they MODELLED the SSL 4000. As far as I can remeber the C200 was not originally targeted at broadcast, it just happened to sell there the most.

Cheers!
bManic

Thanks, bmanic - that explains it. I'm sold! Now, I just need $$$.

[Amberience]

the phrase whatever springs into my head

I really worry that you cant see in what way dsp cards are like dongles

but in truth i dont worry that much - people have different points of views - yours is just very differnt

A DSP card has a real world physical function. A dongle has a mental function. The people that have dongles think it protects their products from piracy, which is a disatrous fallacy. It only protects products from piracy in comfort of their minds, not out here in the real world.

That's my distinction between a DSP card and a dongle. In short: A DSP card has a use.

[sounddesigner]

the phrase whatever springs into my head

I really worry that you cant see in what way dsp cards are like dongles

but in truth i dont worry that much - people have different points of views - yours is just very differnt

A DSP card has a real world physical function. A dongle has a mental function. The people that have dongles think it protects their products from piracy, which is a disatrous fallacy. It only protects products from piracy in comfort of their minds, not out here in the real world.

That's my distinction between a DSP card and a dongle. In short: A DSP card has a use.

as computers grow more powerful will dsp cards still have use? no they won't but UA has released the next generation of uad cards (uad-1e) rather then announce normal vst no card protocol, i assure you the uad card is used to protect against piracy as well.when computers are extremely powerful (near future) uad cards will still be around, and just like a dongle the plugins used by ua will need to refer to that card for operation, and limited to one computer at a time use.Actually the card is alot bigger and more of an inconvienience in some ways, and tends to suffer from more compatibility problems.

[munchkin]

ericj23, I don't know what is more annoying, someone with a (supposedly) working Poco system telling you not to complain, your dismissal that TC does not have a responsibility to address the problems caused by their products (FW included) or your eagerness to blame the customer for the faults in TC's products.

How you can claim that the problems with the Poco are either user incompetance or an unwillingness to buy the correct PC equipment is a total misrepresentation of many of the posts on the Poco forum and very patronising.

TC do not warn of incompatibilities when they eagerly sell you their products. The computer specifications that they suggests are very basic. So it is incumbent on them to honour their support commitment to their customers.

Needless to say, anyone buying a Poco and finding it does not work on their system be prepared for the type of response from TC that I just received from ericj23. They've got your money and tied you into their closed system so why should they care?

[ericj23]

jesus - where did i say don't complain - where did i say that tc do not have a reposnsibility to fix problems - where did I say the problems were the customers fault

what i was saying was your assertion that there is a large amount of people saying they don't work which is tantamount to all of them not working is just nonsense - and it is - sorry

now if that was not your intention I apologise for the tone of my response

where did I insinuate something was user incompetence ?????? - I suggested something that as far as I know solves a specific problem. And if it didn't I offered a suggestion as to where information can be found about another possible way to solve the problem

it works perfectly well for lots of people - now if your not one of them that is awful - i really mean that - the poco emu problem was a royal pita and I ended up using another card as my asio driver and sending adat from it to my emu - I amdea loss when I finally sold the second sound card but it did mean I got the use of the plugs throughout.

Still doesnt change that the idea that tc (or emu or anyone else with buggy software/hardware)arent trying or don't care is self pitying nonsense

Sounds exactly like all those people threatening to sell their expensive cards because of an incompatibility with their cheap motherboards - it speaks of some odd belief that everything revolves around them

I rather prefer having any interest in seeing solutions - and as i said the pentiumD models are a fine solution - TI firewire cards are a good idea . Now I can only apologise if you read those suggested solutions as an insult - because it was not intended that way

but

then you follow it up with your uad works fine - wtf has that got to do with it - so no-one has ever had problems with them then ? they work as designed out of the box do they ?

(hint think the osX problem - and they solved the x2 one all of 3 months ago - 9 months after the things came out)

[mike goodwin]

as computers grow more powerful will dsp cards still have use? no they won't but UA has released the next generation of uad cards (uad-1e) rather then announce normal vst no card protocol, i assure you the uad card is used to protect against piracy as well.when computers are extremely powerful (near future) uad cards will still be around, and just like a dongle the plugins used by ua will need to refer to that card for operation, and limited to one computer at a time use.Actually the card is alot bigger and more of an inconvienience in some ways, and tends to suffer from more compatibility problems.

I agree with you here. I don't see UAD putting out software with no hardware to run it. They have way to much invested in it. Who knows though? There may be a day where UAD just turns to iLok. I also think that it is true that we are nearing a time where the a the computer you buy at Future Shop will be able to run full sessions at 96k as long as you spend a few hundred bucks on a sound card. Sure it may be a few years but still as it stands software is trying to catch up with the hardware. I am not even going to get the most out of my CPU for at least another year (AMD64x2). I need Ableton to come out with Live6 to get dual core support, and then it is windows Vista for the full 64bit support. So I expect two jumps in performance and even as it stands the chip if VERY fast.

[Aleksey Vaneev]

1. I run a 3200+ on my main machine, a second machine via FXTeleport, 2 UAD-1's, a poco, and I still run out of cpu overhead in almost every mix. It's true that if I had a dual-core, I wouldn't, but then FX makers will presumably continue to make plugins take advantage of whatever new resources we get, right?

If you mean FX plug-ins, I do not think so. They have a limited complexity to my knowledge. Synth plug-ins are probably going to increase their CPU needs, though, because they have plenty of ways to implement their function, and that is then multiplied by number of voices.

[bobby yarrow]

You certainly know better than me, and maybe we have reached a sort of acme of FX cpu overhead. It does SEEM that there are reverbs, compressors, eqs, etc., on the market now that simply wouldn't have been practical to run a few years ago. Of course, the other thing that will happen is that we'll all start recording at 192 or some nonsense -- that move alone will eat up any foreseeable cpu advance, right?

[Left Headphone]

I wonder why WaveArts and Nomad Factory can make plugs that use very little cpu and other developers don't?