KVR Audio

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:16 am

Any pitcshifting up will result in aliasing.

Alright, maybe he was referring to noticeable aliasing (the guy I'm probably inaccurately quoting is a DSP programmer.)

Doubling the samplerate to get another octave is cool, as long as you accept to live with two times the CPU load.

Given that synths eat much more CPU than samplers, I think this is a furphy.

Still, I've reduced you synth-fanciers to "you need synths for pitch sweeps", hehe.

shanecgriffo · Post by **shanecgriffo** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:26 am

i put a vote in for buying a good sampler (w/ good library ) and then d/loading lots of free synths (so many that you develop an addiction and have to scan kvr everyday for new ones

)

René · Post by **René** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:10 am

Still, I've reduced you synth-fanciers to "you need synths for pitch sweeps", hehe.

Well, to each one his preferences. I don't think there's any chance of FM, Ringmod, HardSync, PWM, Additive, Resynthesis, Vector, Wavesequencing, Physical Modelling nor many other synthesis methods with samplers. That's not actually "only pitch sweeps", no. Ah and there's also the pitch sweeps

-Remé

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:32 am

rounser wrote:
Any pitcshifting up will result in aliasing.
Alright, maybe he was referring to noticeable aliasing (the guy I'm probably inaccurately quoting is a DSP programmer.)
Doubling the samplerate to get another octave is cool, as long as you accept to live with two times the CPU load.
Given that synths eat much more CPU than samplers, I think this is a furphy.

Still, I've reduced you synth-fanciers to "you need synths for pitch sweeps", hehe.

hehehe... you did make a good point.

Still, I have yet to play a sampler patch that comes close to String Studio in its sound and character.

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:59 am

FM, Ringmod, Additive, Vector and Wavesequencing are all possible with samples, are you crazy?

try the pcm feature on xhip, it supports cross mod and ring mod, you can use two pcm sources at once meaning it supports additive, you can fade between the sources meaning it supports vector.. and you can switch between several pcm slots while a tone is active meaning it supports wavesequencing...

even the very most basic sampler should support those features!

HardSync is very possible too, you can sync the loop reset of a sample and get the same effects if you're using short loops as waveforms on a synth, also possible in xhip.

the solution for aliasing is to oversample by about 8x and use spline resampling on top of that. that means you get about 12 octaves above your neutral point without any real aliasing. it is very possible to run a number of channels in software with that type of resampling, it just ends up taking a bit more cpu than synthesizers do.

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:42 am

I don't think there's any chance of FM, Ringmod, HardSync, PWM, Additive, Resynthesis, Vector, Wavesequencing, Physical Modelling nor many other synthesis methods with samplers.

Well, I have a ring mod effect built into my sampler (although it's an effect, so not true ringmod, but who cares unless you're making hardstyle), PWM always sounds better resampled (which is why all good hoovers and reeses are samples, and not straight from the juno), wavetables are arguably glorified looping anyway, and the rest (apart from hardsync, but samples don't really need that anyway IMO) are mostly so hard to program, or so hard to produce musical results from as to be preset fodder unless you're Brian Eno. That's why VA's are so predominant.

The trump card that a sampler can pull is that any of these sounds which these synths are especially good at (e.g. FM bass, wavetable pads, PWM hoovers) can be sampled, layered and improved further. That's the beauty of sampling; your sampler is so much more powerful than any synth, especially when the synth itself is sample fodder. And you can do it all through a single interface, making life much simpler.

lucille · Post by **lucille** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:02 am

Quincy--

I think you were talking about getting Reason at one point. I ditched my vsts and
went "sample only" with Reason. There are a lot of great synth sample collections for
the NNXT sampler and redrum is an excellent drum sampler. Reason 3 has a decent fx, except for the delay--whicn can b e supplemented by some of the delay reverb patches.

I really like working with rex files in Dr Rex for beats.

Its a simple composition environment with super intuitive automation. There are limitations--its all about trade offs--Paul

René · Post by **René** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:19 pm

FM, Ringmod, Additive, Vector and Wavesequencing are all possible with samples, are you crazy?

Err... I might be crazy, but at least I can read. It's not about what is possible with samples, but with "samplers", considering samplers in a traditional way like Kontakt or HALion or Gigastudio.

-René

fac · Post by **fac** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:51 pm

Most samplers *are* synths.

Newer samplers some with features like FM, AM, powerful filters, envelopes, LFO's, modulation routings, effects, etc (just check something like Wusikstation or Rapture for an example). This makes them as CPU intensive as any synth.

Of course, you could only load a sample and play it back with no additional processing, but then you would need a huge sample library to cover a decent range of sounds.

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:22 pm

Any pitcshifting up will result in aliasing.

not just that, but pitching down is a problem too. A nice 44khz bright saw will lose its brightness when pitched down, since the upper harmonics aren't there.

I'd actually consider that a disadvantage.

and I'll continue to think that the 'hardware sounds better' myth comes from free running oscillators. 2x the same exact voice is quite boring.

FM, Ringmod, Additive, Vector and Wavesequencing are all possible with samples, are you crazy?

if it's possible, then it's a synth, not a sampler.

shamann · Post by **shamann** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:13 pm

tony tony chopper wrote:
FM, Ringmod, Additive, Vector and Wavesequencing are all possible with samples, are you crazy?
if it's possible, then it's a synth, not a sampler.

Shortcircuit has both FM and ringmod, and it definitely is a sampler. Vector and wavesequencing are just wave mixing techniques, so really could apply to anything.

I'd agree about additive though, once you synthesize a new sound or re-synthesize an old sound, pretty pointless in calling it anything but a synthesizer.

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:28 pm

if it's possible, then it's a synth, not a sampler.

My sampler can apply ringmod, therefore it's a synth???

That's an interesting assertion to make. Must be based on some definition of a synth that I'm unaware of. I was under the impression that a sampler requires a sample to play back before it can make a sound, and a synth synthesizes sound from nothing. Whatever the sampler does to that source material after that doesn't cause it to suddenly become a synth.

In other words, your definition of a synth or sampler doesn't match mine. Care to share it with us?

fac · Post by **fac** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:40 pm

rounser wrote: My sampler can apply ringmod, therefore it's a synth???

That's an interesting assertion to make. Must be based on some definition of a synth that I'm unaware of. I was under the impression that a sampler requires a sample to play back before it can make a sound, and a synth synthesizes sound from nothing. Whatever the sampler does to that source material after that doesn't cause it to suddenly become a synth.

In other words, your definition of a synth or sampler doesn't match mine. Care to share it with us?

Samplers and synths are not mutually exclusive. There are many sample-based synths whose oscillators come from samples, and most samplers use synthesis techniques (e.g. filters, modulation, etc) to achieve (synthesize) new sounds from existing samples.

So yes, your sampler is *also* a synth.

Why do people want to draw a line between the two?

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:40 pm

Most samplers *are* synths.

Newer samplers some with features like FM, AM, powerful filters, envelopes, LFO's, modulation routings, effects, etc (just check something like Wusikstation or Rapture for an example). This makes them as CPU intensive as any synth.

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about either. Filters, LFOs and effects are all core sampler features, and don't make them synths.

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:44 pm

My sampler can apply ringmod, therefore it's a synth???

how to argue about nothing..

if it has the feature set of a synth, it's a synth, if it has the feature set of a sampler, it's a sampler. If it's in-between, it depends where in-between, and what it's the best/easiest at: synthesis or sampling.

Your sampler is a full-featured sampler with RM added? it's a sampler.
No one here is arguing about names, but about features. A sampler isn't supposed to have the feature set of a synth, so it's pointless to argue 'yes but I have a sampler that does this or that'. Do you know a plugin that's the best sampler & synth at the same time?

Sampling vs Synthesis - do i need synths?!