Any Alternatives to Guitar Rig

[arke]

simulanalog guitar suite .... TS-9 through JCM900 =

[Sascha Franck]

After a while of fooling around with various ampsims (including GR, which I own), I came to the conclusion that these ampsims aren't anything for me to get some serious work done in a recording situation.
I can live with the sound just fine, but there's one thing killing me: Latency!
It sucks! BIG TIME!
Note: I *do* have a soundcard that I can set to 128 or even 64 samples of buffersize.
Still, it sucks. One should know that latency isn't always what you read on the box. So 128 samples just don't equal 3ms in almost all cases. There's always some "safety buffers" added by the driver, then there's chances that there's some further latency added by the plugin in question (especially when it's using any sort of convolution engine) and last but not least one shouldn't forget that with audio software monitoring, latency comes twice, once for the input, once for the output.
So, you will easily end up with something like 20ms or so in total. Quite enough of making me sick.
While recording, you will compensate for that latency automatically (unless you're using a split signal and monitor through some hardware sim) by playing early. Then, on playback, the track will be played back "as it hit the DAW" - so, what sounded in the pocket while playing will now be early and there's manual adjustment required.

In addition, playing with software sims a lot will actually get you used to playing early - something I clearly can't afford, having spent the most of my guitarists life to get my timing more or less right. And I just *hate* playing early.

That's why I re-cabled my (rather mediocre) VAmp and POD. They will have to serve for a while until I'm ready to build my dead box speaker enclosure.

Don't get me wrong, I love computer based ampsims and I'm gonna use them for my next live setup - where latency isn't *that* much of an issue, plus you're always getting "what you hear". And I can run that setup at lowest latency as well, which isn't always possible with busy projects.

But for serious recordings? No thanks. At least not yet. Probably with the MacBook I'm gonna be buying one day, which should offer one or the other *true* low latency solution.

[softegg]

has voxengo boogex been mentioned yet?
not always very realistic, but very nice sounds.

[metalifuxx]

Boogex with the POD impulses works good for distortion. iZotope Trash is also awesome for overdrive/distortion, and can equal as an ampsim with speaker modeling included, but both have a lot of latency. Try using stomp boxes or distortion/overdrive unit then apply cabinet modeling after recording with guitar rig or impulses with boogex or SIR.

FreeAmp-SE 1.5 is also pretty good for cleans/crunches and really awesome when you run an overdrive pedal/plugin through some of the clean presets. Latency is kind of high again though.

No one mentioned Green Machine. That can get some pretty good high gain crunchy sounds.

Right now my friend is trying a Hughes N Kettner Tubeman stomp/preamp out with thier Hughes N Kettner red box speaker emulation built-in and getting pretty good results for crunchy distortion type sounds.

He thinks the way to go will be finding a dedicated guitar recording pre-amp, such as the SansAmp PS1, Voodoo Labs Guitar PreAmp, Hughes N Kettner Access guitar preamp (discontinued). He had the Hughes N Kettner Aceess (which they no longer make and very hard to find), but regrets selling it on ebay (sold very fast with the $1000 buy now option).

[Hink]

After a while of fooling around with various ampsims (including GR, which I own), I came to the conclusion that these ampsims aren't anything for me to get some serious work done in a recording situation.
I can live with the sound just fine, but there's one thing killing me: Latency!
It sucks! BIG TIME!
Note: I *do* have a soundcard that I can set to 128 or even 64 samples of buffersize.
Still, it sucks. One should know that latency isn't always what you read on the box. So 128 samples just don't equal 3ms in almost all cases. There's always some "safety buffers" added by the driver, then there's chances that there's some further latency added by the plugin in question (especially when it's using any sort of convolution engine) and last but not least one shouldn't forget that with audio software monitoring, latency comes twice, once for the input, once for the output.
So, you will easily end up with something like 20ms or so in total. Quite enough of making me sick.
While recording, you will compensate for that latency automatically (unless you're using a split signal and monitor through some hardware sim) by playing early. Then, on playback, the track will be played back "as it hit the DAW" - so, what sounded in the pocket while playing will now be early and there's manual adjustment required.

In addition, playing with software sims a lot will actually get you used to playing early - something I clearly can't afford, having spent the most of my guitarists life to get my timing more or less right. And I just *hate* playing early.

That's why I re-cabled my (rather mediocre) VAmp and POD. They will have to serve for a while until I'm ready to build my dead box speaker enclosure.

Don't get me wrong, I love computer based ampsims and I'm gonna use them for my next live setup - where latency isn't *that* much of an issue, plus you're always getting "what you hear". And I can run that setup at lowest latency as well, which isn't always possible with busy projects.

But for serious recordings? No thanks. At least not yet. Probably with the MacBook I'm gonna be buying one day, which should offer one or the other *true* low latency solution.

I'm sorry Sascha, because you have saved me money and confirmed my concerns. I feel a little bit guilty over the fact I learned that on your money, if you and I ever in the same place, at the same time...I owe you a beer.

Don't feel too bad though, back in the real early 80's I got hooked on an amp company called tusc. I just did a google search for an image but there was none, but I did find a review about how good they sounded...but they called doo doo brown

I infact influenced a friend who was learning guitr to buy a head with 2 2x12 cabs. I actually bought a tusc 2x12 too, because it wasn't bad and it had fanes in it. But poor dave, the amp was junk, it sounded like crap. It was a tube amp, but where the review gave it a high mark for sound I disagree and the fact they didn't make it probably backs me up. Poor, Poor Dave, he really forked out a lot of cash for me to learn that.

[feyshay]

I only get 6msec of latency, but who knows what is added through GR2. I can't really hear it, but I understand Sasha's point about potentially having this effect. I will generally use a POD XT Pro or just the amp for practice. For recording, I'll shoot for micing and amp and make sure I keep a dry signal for potential reamping or sending to the POD. Everything is compensated within Cubase for external effects, so that is never a barrier.
BTW--I bought a POD XT Live, sold it, bought GR 2 (after trying out the rest of the sims), and then found a POD XT Pro used for a ridiculously good price. I have generally been using the Pro--I like not having to rely on the converters of the XT Live. Things just sound better. Maybe it's just that I tried the others and am back to the POD sims with all the add-on packs.
BTW--What kind of amp do you have (to the original poster)? Have you tried micing the amp?

[feyshay]

BTW--that 6msec is exactly what Sascha was saying 3msec x2, 128 samples. Pretty predicable and not really noticeable.

[Lunch Money]

TonePort "ToneDirect monitoring" has insanely tiny latency. It must be 1ms or something silly. Might as well be "realtime".

Greg

[klagga]

good for reamping a dry take too, you get the kind of flexibility GR gives you.

Hey, according to the Pod XT Live/Pod Pro manuals and Line6 support, reamping is only possible with the Pod Pro, not the Pod XT Live!

Am I missing something here??

[Stupid American Pig]

TonePort "ToneDirect monitoring" has insanely tiny latency. It must be 1ms or something silly. Might as well be "realtime".

Greg

Indeed! I think I may use the toneport on my Laptop as a "pod"

[Hink]

good for reamping a dry take too, you get the kind of flexibility GR gives you.

Hey, according to the Pod XT Live/Pod Pro manuals and Line6 support, reamping is only possible with the Pod Pro, not the Pod XT Live!

Am I missing something here??

yes....I have POD xt live and re-amping is very easy to do, and it comes with the guitar port software as well...you have choices of how to run the xt's usb, one option is with no effects...I can set it up to record the clean unprocessed sound (without hearing it) and monitor the analog sound processed through my soundcards input...my card has direct monitor so I can do it latency free.

As I don't do much re-amping, what I have been doing is recording the processed sound through usb and monitoring the analog to avoid latency

[tk421]

Trash is my favorite. Guitar suite is great, too. The FX version of Slayer 2 has been growing on me.

[Hink]

here is the xt's control panel...

[Sascha Franck]

BTW--that 6msec is exactly what Sascha was saying 3msec x2, 128 samples. Pretty predicable and not really noticeable.

Believe me, this is NOT the actual latency you'll be getting!
I agree that 6ms are barely noticeable, but as said...

To test your actual latency, you'd have to play back a sample with some sharp attack, then reroute it to your input, setup some software monitoring scenario (including whatever plugins) and bounce the file down with the input being merged into the file (Cubase and Logic allow for such a thing, no idea about other hosts). Pan the original and the input channels L/R, then compare in whatever audio editor of your choice.

Btw, once you have the routing done, I'm almost sure you'll already notice the latency...

[Sascha Franck]

And fwiw, I'm considering getting a Toneport as well one day.

Regarding re-amping: F*** it. I mean, really, all those "famous" guitar sounds everybody seems to be raving about are done without any re-amping at all.
Of course, you should always only record a dry amp signal, but that shouldn't be much of a deal.

All those re-amping ideas seem to be based on some hope that one day there's gonna be the ultimate amp sim.
Oh well, sure, there are advantages of it. You can record silently and later on route the signal through some real amps. And of course fixing some "sound errors" might be easier as well - but the latter can be solved by experience.
And besides, it's not as if re-amping would be that much of a tough thing generally. All it takes is some split box and there you go, recording a clean guitar signal in addition. I'm abusing my Whammy II for such things and it's doing a great job.