Any Alternatives to Guitar Rig

[guitarzan]

I think re-amping is good for setting the amp sim up so it sounds good for tracking, but then later being able to tweak the amp settings so the track will set in the mix the way you want it to.

Oh, and if you're really all that sensitive to a 6ms delay - you could probably catch a bullet between your teeth (that act probably pays better than guitar playing).

[Sascha Franck]

Oh, and if your really all that sensitive to a 6ms delay - you could probably catch a bullet between your teeth (that act probably pays better than guitar playing).

I already said so: What you WILL actually experience is FAR more than the 6ms your soundcard settings will report. Things easily add up to 20+ ms.
If a 128 samples buffersize setting would indeed result in 6ms of end-to-end latency, I'd be a happy camper. But that's simply not the case. And no, I'm not using cheap sondcards.

[guitarzan]

I was just messing with the buffer and I really do not detect a very noticable difference between 128 and 64 samples, but I guess some people are more sensitive to such things than others. It all seems about the same as the POD Pro I just sold a couple of weeks ago after owning it for six years. I'm sure the XT sounds better than that first generation, but I sure will not miss that thing now that I've got FreeAmpSE and SimulAnalog and all the other great plugs.

[Sascha Franck]

I was just messing with the buffer and I really do not detect a very noticable difference between 128 and 64 samples, but I guess some people are more sensitive to such things than others. It all seems about the same as the POD Pro I just sold a couple of weeks ago after owning it for six years. I'm sure the XT sounds better than that first generation, but I sure will not miss that thing now that I've got FreeAmpSE and SimulAnalog and all the other great plugs.

There's no true perceptable difference between 64 and 128 samples.
It's the "safety buffers" most (make that "all") soundcards are adding. Which aren't reported by the driver settings or inside your host. Then there's some additional converter latency, but usually thats neglectable. And finally there's the software latency.

And fwiw, I found the POD to add quite some latency at some settings as well.

And fwiw #2: It's not so much that I couldn't live with all that, "manual compensation" is working quite fine. It's just that what you record doesn't sound the same on playback.

[Lunch Money]

In addition to the TonePort, I've also used a D.I. guitar + amp sims (either Simulanalog or Green Machine II). Even at my best settings, there's a barely-detectable latency. It's not enough to put me off recording that way, but it IS enough that I value the TonePort's "ToneDirect" system, now.

Even though TP isn't set up for re-amping, I have done exactly what Sascha suggests, and split my signal in two. I can then record the dry as well as the wet, while monitoring either or both.

Greg

[stag]

Hi guys:

My math sucks, but correct me please.
If the sound tavels 3ms\m., then 12ms. latency is like being 4 meters away from your speakers, innit?
If one is using headphones for tracking, I do, 256 samples is about the same as being 4 meters from amp.

Is there any takes on this? pianist should know better since piano has an awfull lot of latency to deal with.

Bye.

[Sascha Franck]

stag, your maths are correct. But: As said numerous times already, the overall system latency is ALLWAYS higher than what your soundcard or host may tell you. The only way to find out is doing an end-to-end latency test, as described above.

Besides, I find it rather irritating working with headphones but experiencing the sound of an amp standing far away from me.

[guitarzan]

To me listening to a mic'ed amp that is in an isolation box creates even more of a disconnected feel than an amp sim. I guess it's because you can't really tweak real-time, so I never really got a tone that I liked. If you had an isolation booth or room, where you could be in there with the amp then it would probably be great - but then you really can't directly monitor what is being recorded.

After years of trying to get electric guitar tone that I like without getting arrested I am finaly pretty satisfied with amp sims, myself. I really like how modular hosts, like energyXT, let you easily mix and match all the different vst's from different developers - just like a real guitar rig except all the cables work without jiggling them!

Sascha - are you still using ASIO4ALL (I thought I read that in one of your posts)? Is it possible that the "Latency Compensation" (not the buffer size) setting could cause timing problems? Just a thought - those settings are usually taken care of in proprietary drivers, but it's a manual input for ASIO4ALL. I don't really know where it should be set and that is one of the reasons I stick with the manufacturer's drivers.

[stag]

Hi Sasha:
No doubt, a blasting JCM800 rules.
My problem is printing all the pumped air in a fashion that conveys what i was playing, i'm not an engineer, i know the basics of compression, well perhaps cranking a bit the lower mid on the board...

i can't do it, worst i don't even want to learn it.
Since i tested guitar suite against a JCM preamp cab sim out and couldn't spot a diference, i was hooked on the soft thing for life.

Oh i like my headphones a lot, AKG "something cool".

Bye.

[Sascha Franck]

Sascha - are you still using ASIO4ALL (I thought I read that in one of your posts)? Is it possible that the "Latency Compensation" (not the buffer size) setting could cause timing problems?

After experiencing a higher CPU load I don't use them anymore. Besides, the drivers of my Indigo I/O are doing quite well (I'm laptop based these days).
But apart from that, they haven't caused any problems anymore, at least not in terms of latency.

Anyways, I'm quite happy with amp sims for the most part as well. If there only wasn't the damn latency issue.

Still, I'm gonna build myself a dead box one day.
I've just been in the rehearsal room a few days ago, trying out all the shit I've bought over the years, and there's no way any amp sim will give me a clean sound like my Mark IV or a soaring lead as the V-Twin preamp running into the Boogies poweramp.
Fwiw, I also had the laptop with me and ran the various softamps through the Boogie PA - quite something else as well! All of a sudden GR2 was screaming as well.
It's been so good I'm actually rethinking my plans for a live setup again.

[Niksounds]

This is, for me, a good alternative to Guitar Rig



RIGHT MOUSE BUTTON AND SAVE AS, not direct clik.

http://guitarnik.altervista.org/sounds/sweet.mp3

It is my messican strato + this misterious plug in

It's a 2005 vst.

[BertKoor]

If one is using headphones for tracking, I do, 256 samples is about the same as being 4 meters from amp.

True. But the sensation is different. With the headphones you expect the sound to be there the very same instant. With a cabinet 10 meters away you (uncounsiously) expect the small delay.

[Sascha Franck]

True. But the sensation is different. With the headphones you expect the sound to be there the very same instant. With a cabinet 10 meters away you (uncounsiously) expect the small delay.

Exactly!
And, when you ever played with a wireless and went into the audience place (during soundcheck or so, I'd never be enough of a freak to do so during a show), so that you're away even further than 10 metres, you will just know HOW disturbing this is in regards to timing and accuracy.
And when recording, I simply want optimum conditions.
I mean, hey, we're all not recording through some radio shack headphones either. Why in the world would I have to deal with latency then (which is even more important than the headphone sound)?
This is really making me wonder. People are always going for the sound of things, but nobody ever seems to care about THE most important thing ever: Timing that is!

[duncanparsons]

Oh, and if your really all that sensitive to a 6ms delay - you could probably catch a bullet between your teeth (that act probably pays better than guitar playing).

Curiously, I was reading the SOS interview with Trevor Horn some months back, and he mentioned that Chris Squire (bass player with Yes) can hear 1ms.. some people are gifted with such things.. Apparently Tori Amos can tell the difference between CDs burnt on different writers, even in blind tests..



DSP

[stag]

Oh, and if your really all that sensitive to a 6ms delay - you could probably catch a bullet between your teeth (that act probably pays better than guitar playing).

Curiously, I was reading the SOS interview with Trevor Horn some months back, and he mentioned that Chris Squire (bass player with Yes) can hear 1ms.. some people are gifted with such things.. Apparently Tori Amos can tell the difference between CDs burnt on different writers, even in blind tests..



DSP

1ms!!! spliting a second a 1000 times, well in Formula 1 they count only 1\100 alone and those guys know about speed.

PS: I just throw in the car paralelism to complete the thread.