Waves Masters vs L3 - opinions?

[iain_morland]

I know Waves can be a bit of a dirty word here on KVR, but - opinions on WUP aside - if anyone has experience of the Masters bundle and/or L3, I'd appreciate your thoughts on my choice between them as explained in this thread on the Waves forum:

I am trying to decide between the Masters bundle and the L3 and would appreciate suggestions in terms of both functionality and value for money.

I have Ren Maxx and some other non-linear phase EQs so have everyday EQing covered.

Ren Maxx also obviously offers smooth wideband compression.

But I don't have a limiter, a multiband compressor or a linear phase EQ.

My key concern in making the choice is USABILITY. The Masters bundle offers many tweakable options but I feel that the L3 is more usable - it's just one interface to learn.

I could clearly spend a long time carefully chaining and adjusting the Masters plugins, but in most mastering situations could I get a comparable result by using the L3 multimaximiser?

('Most mastering situations' for me means that I wouldn't be doing restorative work or remasters of clients' music but mastering my own pre-mixed pop and ambient material.)

But would I be kidding myself to think that the L3 can really 'replace' the functions offered by the Masters plugins?

The other consideration is that although the L3 is technically a 'bundle', it looks unlikely that any plugins would be added to it under WUP, since an L3 is an L3 is an L3. I would be more hopeful of additions to the Masters bundle. Is this a fair assumption?

Any opinions welcome, especially those pointing out difference between Masters and L3 that I haven't thought of yet.

Thanks

[AVBunyan]

I know Waves can be a bit of a dirty word here on KVR, but - opinions on WUP aside - if anyone has experience of the Masters bundle and/or L3, Thanks

Not a dirty word with me though you will find that WUP appears to be the main issue -

Question - will you be doing any "real" Mastering? I only have the Musicians Bundle II and the Native Power Pack which includes the L1 Ultramaximizer+ which I believe to be a very good limiter.

I have demoed the rest and found the L2 and other Mastering plugs exceptionable.

Haven't played with the L3 demo for I really do not do any real mastering.

God bless

[iain_morland]

Thanks for your comments.

In answer to your question, no, I'm not a mastering engineer and I won't pretend that my modest monitoring setup would enable me to hear the fine detail necessary to become one - no matter how many plugins I use!

But I would be preparing material for commercial release/licensing so do need to get as polished a sound as possible, with an easy-to-use interface.

At the moment I'm thinking the Masters bundle would be a better investment, because it's likely to have things added to it (though I know I can't count on that!). L3 in contrast is essentially just one plugin. BUT L3 is obviously cheaper upfront. I also wonder whether Masters would give too many options. But on the other hand, I might want and need those options later...

[Jonny Quest]

I own Waves Platinum and, as result, have all these plug-ins, although my L3 is only the Ultramaximizer version.

As you know, the Master gives you the linear phase eq, the linear multiband, and the L2.

Whereas the L3 is just the compressor/limiter.

In my opinion, to make better sounding recordings one must use both eq and compression tools to shape the frequency spectrum and control the dynamic range.

I would demo as many products as possible prior to your purchase. Compare the Waves Linear Phase eqs to the Rennaisance eqs...even the new SSL plugs. And look at some of the other manufacturers as well. There are many excellent and less expensive manufacturers other than Waves.

If you have decided Waves is for you, I'd recommend any bundle that offers eq and compression.

Good luck,

~jonny

[defjamm]

if these 2 are your only choice, clearly the masters bundle.

[iain_morland]

Thanks for the info.

I did try the SSL plugs but although they have a great sound, they duplicate too many of the functions offered by the Ren Maxx plugs to warrant the expense. And the bus compressor isn't really a limiter.

Regarding the EQs, I don't find the Ren EQs suitable for mastering or whole mixes, but I do like them as track EQs.

The main reason I'm going for Waves is the usability. I know they're expensive, but I found I was spending too long tinkering with plugins by many different developers, all with different conventions and designs, rather than actually making music. Just my personal experience. And I actually don't mind the WUP because at least it is a predictable expense (unlike, say, the upcoming Live 6 "upgrade"/bug fix, but that's another story...).

[umps]

I've only used the L2 before, (so this may not be too helpful) but after using this plug in extensively in a professional studio at my school, I can say it is well worth the price. There really is no other tool like it and there is a reason it is priced that high. The L2 has been used in my studio to save many dull sounding recordings from its doom.

[Jonny Quest]

Thanks for the info.

I did try the SSL plugs but although they have a great sound, they duplicate too many of the functions offered by the Ren Maxx plugs to warrant the expense. And the bus compressor isn't really a limiter.

Regarding the EQs, I don't find the Ren EQs suitable for mastering or whole mixes, but I do like them as track EQs.

The main reason I'm going for Waves is the usability. I know they're expensive, but I found I was spending too long tinkering with plugins by many different developers, all with different conventions and designs, rather than actually making music. Just my personal experience. And I actually don't mind the WUP because at least it is a predictable expense (unlike, say, the upcoming Live 6 "upgrade"/bug fix, but that's another story...).

Got yah.

Based on this, the only thing I can think of adding is I have found the L2 as good as perhaps "better" (in some respects) than the L3.

Of course, my subjectivity is likely influenced by my familiarity with the L2, where as the L3 is a newer tool in my arsenal.

IMO, you needn't feel like you are compromising by using the L2 from the Masters bundle. Of course, you could just spring for the Diamond...and have it all

BTW: I agree with your analysis of the WUP; it may not be a great way to bolster customer relations in the near term, but in the long run, the benefits to the consumer hopefully will outweigh the negatives.

[brandondrury]

The L2 has been used in my studio to save many dull sounding recordings from its doom.

You must be referring to something other than the L2 plugin which I own. The L2 has nothing to do with "dull" or "clear" or any other adjective referring to frequency response.. It simply makes things louder by clipping off the peaks.

Brandon

[iain_morland]

umps: do you mean the LinMB maybe, or the L3? I see brandondrury's point, and am interested in hearing more about your experience.

Jonny Quest: I spent a long time yesterday A/Bing mixdowns through the Masters plugins (in various configs) and the L3. It's strange - although I can see how the L3 is an advance on the Masters in some ways (since it combines several of their features and it has only one nicely clear interface) I haven't yet managed to produce anything with it that's *better* than what I can do with Masters!

L3'd tracks tend to end up sounding a bit thin and too bright. I am sure it could be done better in more experienced hands, but part of my point about the usability is that I'd rather not sit fiddling with settings for hours.

So it looks like Masters (and an extra $300... ) after all.

Don't tempt me with Diamond, lol! I did consider it (partly cos I love Doubler), but I simply don't need all the FX plugins; whilst I think Waves still makes the best mastering tools, their filters, flangers, etc, have certainly been superseded by Ohm Force, PSP, etc, IMO.

[xander]

The L2 has been used in my studio to save many dull sounding recordings from its doom.

You must be referring to something other than the L2 plugin which I own. The L2 has nothing to do with "dull" or "clear" or any other adjective referring to frequency response.. It simply makes things louder by clipping off the peaks.

Brandon

I think I know what umps is saying. Any good compressor will bring a varying degree of frequencies more to the front of the mix that otherwise might be muddied or less perceptable in a weak mix. This is pretty easy to demonstrate. The L2 is an excellent compressor and is way more than just a loudness device.

Cheers,
Alex

[brandondrury]

The L2 is an excellent compressor and is way more than just a loudness device.

The L2 isn't a compressor. It's a brickwall limiter. A compressor will do things that a L2 will not. A L2 will generally do a better job at brickwall limiting (if really needed at all) than a compressor.

What use does an L2 have other than simply reducing the dynamic range of a mix?

With a compressor, I can increase the attack, reduce the attack (and thereby increasing the sustain), make it sound thicker, or make it sound brighter. With a compressor I can distort a vocal, make a vocal sit better in a tight mix, increase the dynamic range (by using less than 1:1 ratios) The only use I've found for the L2 is making something louder.

Please inform me what else an L2 can do because I've never heard the L2 ever add anything musical at all to my recordings. It simply makes my drums a little quieter.

Brandon

[iain_morland]

I thought a limiter is a brickwall (=infinite) compressor, but i expect there are others who can explain this better than me.

I'm not sure I'd use an L2 (or any other Waves L...) on individual tracks, though, because it's deliberately rather characterless.

[Jonny Quest]

The L2 is an excellent compressor and is way more than just a loudness device.

The L2 isn't a compressor. It's a brickwall limiter. A compressor will do things that a L2 will not. A L2 will generally do a better job at brickwall limiting (if really needed at all) than a compressor.

What use does an L2 have other than simply reducing the dynamic range of a mix?

Reducing the dynamic range of a mix to balance levels is one of the primary functions of mastering. In my opinion the L2 sounds better than some other brick wall limiters (plug-ins), primarily in the way the high frequencies are handled when the peaks are leveled off.

And even though it's a dirty deed to some, maximizing loudness while maintaining fidelity is important to many.


Note: I edited this because on a reread my opinion could have seemed argumentative; in fact I agree with Brandon about the merits of compressors -- just wanted to point out limiters have a use.

[xander]

The L2 is an excellent compressor and is way more than just a loudness device.

The L2 isn't a compressor. It's a brickwall limiter. A compressor will do things that a L2 will not. A L2 will generally do a better job at brickwall limiting (if really needed at all) than a compressor.

What use does an L2 have other than simply reducing the dynamic range of a mix?

With a compressor, I can increase the attack, reduce the attack (and thereby increasing the sustain), make it sound thicker, or make it sound brighter. With a compressor I can distort a vocal, make a vocal sit better in a tight mix, increase the dynamic range (by using less than 1:1 ratios) The only use I've found for the L2 is making something louder.

Please inform me what else an L2 can do because I've never heard the L2 ever add anything musical at all to my recordings. It simply makes my drums a little quieter.

Brandon

You're simplifying things a bit aren't you? "It simply makes the drums quieter." ?

A rose by any other name -- Brickwall limiting IS signal compression to a degree, or else those low peaks are never brought up in gain respective to the highs. These is also no reason why it would make your drum quieter. Perhaps it is making your drums quieter because you've not properly adjusted the threshold/ARC... We can go on and on about it, but perhaps we can post some A/B samples here for comparison. I'm certainly happy to put up or shut up

Cheers,
Alex