Waves Masters vs L3 - opinions?

[xander]

If you cannot agree that the B mix is better then you need ear training mate

I must need ear training too then!

Mix B sounds louder, but definitely not better.

Really really? Putting the hasty, trite repartee aside, are you being serious?

Yeah, totally serious. The first version had a good sense of depth and scale which has gone from the second.. mix B has lost any sense of weight on the bass drum, has exagerated the slight sibilance of the cymbals, and pushed the hats too far forwrd in the mix.

Fair enough mate. I know your excellent musical work on the Chrysalid project, so I really appreciate and respect your input.

So are you saying that you'd have not used the L2 at all here and would have finaled with something else? Or, perhaps you'd have backed it down more, or...? So maybe, if your only choice was using the L2 or an L3 MB, you'd use the L3 solely?

Cheers,
Alex

[xander]

I'm producing a sesson that starts in about 2 minutes so I won't be able to get to this until late tonight.

It appears that some of you have much more time on your hands than I do. I'm a little concerned that my mastering skills will be put to the test here. I am no mastering engineer.

I'm listening on my trusty $100 computer speakers, but the audio clip you put up is not a great test. For one, I think the high hat is too agressive anyway. Secondly, I'm not hearing all this "mud" you are referring to.

I must admit that I've never mixed a project that used samples. I'm just now hopping into the sample world today (if Cubase SX arrives today). Compared to tracking rock drums at home in small room for 5 years, dealing with samples is nothing. Relatively speaking, these midi productions are nearly perfect. Maybe my perspective is a little different from most of the people on here, but I probably wouldn't do anything to that mix but turn down the hihat (and that's no mastering job).

Before I make any big decisions let me listen to it on my studio monitors.

Brandon

I understand mate

This is only an interesting exercise and you shouldn't even bother with it if you don't enjoy this sort of thing.

Anyway, this is what KVR is all about, and a great learning experience yeah? Doesn't matter if you're not a professional mastering engineer -- I think everyone's comments are worthy -- tho I must say I prefer people to back up what they say by either having us know their work in previous examples or post something here, as you originally offered

I take it as a compliment your saying that all you'd do is turn down the hats in the mix

Get back to us when you've had a listen in your proper monitors then?

Cheers,
Alex

[IIRs]

I simply wouldn't try to get it that loud if I could help it! The original mix sounds good, and has RMS levels that Bob Katz would approve of.. yes its quieter than most modern releases, but at the end of the day its the volume control on the stereo system that decides how loud it sounds, and if the mix sounds good enough that volume control will be cranked up higher!

If I had to squeeze more volume out of it I might try using parallel compression (ie: upward compression) to bring the quiet bits up to mid levels, and then back off the limiter a bit to let the transients through better. Possibly a longer release would help.. the exact model of limiter you use will only make a marginal difference IMO, as they all destroy your dynamics by definition!

[Jonny Quest]

Alex: I do think that the L2 in your "Motigation" test gives a better sound for that particular track.

I'm happy to leave everything in this thread, but as you say, a direct L3/L2 comparison would be useful. Even if it is...limited (heehee).

I would be happy to run examples through L3 and L2 (other compressors and limiters too if anyone wants) for comparisson.

I'd gladly use Xander's song (per his permission and help in getting a quality file from which to work.)

~jonny

[xander]

@xander: i really know how a l2 sounds. if you like it use it but a limiter is the last thing that delivers punch. the more you'll push it the more it will take dynamics away and destroy transients. more loudness means less dynamics.

OK -- but can you provide an example?

it also makes no sense to put an example up with the l3 because the l3 has many different modes, but all sound shitty. most of the loudness on modern tracks is not from something like a l2, believe what you want, i know

Naw, I don't buy that. Unless you can qualify "but all sound shitty", we're supposed to take your word for it? Do you have an L3?

No help here then...

Doesn't ANYONE have a fookin L3 out there?!!

[Jonny Quest]

what KVR is all about, and a great learning experience yeah? Doesn't matter if you're not a professional mastering engineer -- I think everyone's comments are worthy

Agree. Ignorance may be bliss and knowledge...power, but learning is the precursor to mastery.

~jonny

[xander]

I simply wouldn't try to get it that loud if I could help it! The original mix sounds good, and has RMS levels that Bob Katz would approve of.. yes its quieter than most modern releases, but at the end of the day its the volume control on the stereo system that decides how loud it sounds, and if the mix sounds good enough that volume control will be cranked up higher!

If I had to squeeze more volume out of it I might try using parallel compression (ie: upward compression) to bring the quiet bits up to mid levels, and then back off the limiter a bit to let the transients through better. Possibly a longer release would help.. the exact model of limiter you use will only make a marginal difference IMO, as they all destroy your dynamics by definition!

Yeah? Bobkat? Cool!

Now this is getting me somewhere. I understand what you're saying. Good stuff mate. But could we use the L3 for an upward compression on the quiet bits? If not, which one would you recommend?

I'd love to hear what you'd do with it

Cheers,
Alex

[Jonny Quest]

Doesn't ANYONE have a fookin L3 out there?!!

No doubt our postings crossed in cyber space. I have an L3 and would be happy to help in this endeavor.

Using your song could provide a good reference point. If I can get a decent quality file of the track, I'd be happy to run it through the L3 -- I'll even pass it through a few other brick-wall limiters as well as muli-band compressors.

~jonny

[xander]

Alex: I do think that the L2 in your "Motigation" test gives a better sound for that particular track.

I'm happy to leave everything in this thread, but as you say, a direct L3/L2 comparison would be useful. Even if it is...limited (heehee).

I would be happy to run examples through L3 and L2 (other compressors and limiters too if anyone wants) for comparisson.

I'd gladly use Xander's song (per his permission and help in getting a quality file from which to work.)

~jonny

Hey cool

That would be most welcome!

Here's the raw wav file -- it's 32bit/48K:

AJ-Motigation-Testclip-1

If that's not good enough, tell me what you need then

FYI: No one is going to get bashed for trying something (other than if the odd troll stops by). Every effort is a valid exercise for both the listeners and the contributors.

Cheers,
Alex

[xander]

Doesn't ANYONE have a fookin L3 out there?!!

No doubt our postings crossed in cyber space. I have an L3 and would be happy to help in this endeavor.

Using your song could provide a good reference point. If I can get a decent quality file of the track, I'd be happy to run it through the L3 -- I'll even pass it through a few other brick-wall limiters as well as muli-band compressors.

~jonny

A MAN steps up!!

Now were getting somewhere -- Multi comparisons would be even more awesome if you have the time and am grateful for the time and effort it takes you.

btw, the wav file is fairly flat EQ'd, tho someone mentioned that the hats/cymbals may be too prominent.

**I can also give you the individual tracks raw if that's what you'd like.

Cheers & Thanks,
Alex

[defjamm]

@xander: i really know how a l2 sounds. if you like it use it but a limiter is the last thing that delivers punch. the more you'll push it the more it will take dynamics away and destroy transients. more loudness means less dynamics.

OK -- but can you provide an example?

it also makes no sense to put an example up with the l3 because the l3 has many different modes, but all sound shitty. most of the loudness on modern tracks is not from something like a l2, believe what you want, i know

Naw, I don't buy that. Unless you can qualify "but all sound shitty", we're supposed to take your word for it? Do you have an L3?

No help here then...

Doesn't ANYONE have a fookin L3 out there?!!

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.p ... +timeworks

there are enough examples in this thread, enjoy!

[Jonny Quest]

Now were getting somewhere -- Multi comparisons would be even more awesome if you have the time and am grateful for the time and effort it takes you.

btw, the wav file is fairly flat EQ'd, tho someone mentioned that the hats/cymbals may be too prominent.

**I can also give you the individual tracks raw if that's what you'd like.

Cheers & Thanks,
Alex

Working with same stereo mix is best for this type of demonstration; remixing would add even more subjective decisions to a process that is more about the efficacy of particular products than engineering skills....thankfully since I am a mediocre mixer.

PM me and we can make arrangements for to transfer the file.

For those interested in this experiment--feel free to pipe in on types of products you would like to hear. Obviously the L3. I was thinking about comparing to PSP vintage warmer (which is imo a brick wall limiter,) Ozone 3, other Waves (Rennaissance plugs, LinEQ, etc.,) a hardware compressor...and...I have still not activated my Roger Nichols' DYNAMIZER demo

Look forward to learning a few things myself.

~jonny

[chagzuki]

These days the L2 is an average limiter. It's OK, but there are better in the software world, and I wouldn't use it.

1. List of those better?

2. Post an example A/B track?

Otherwise....

Cheers,
Alex

I've got no time for posting a/b examples. Elephant does everything L2 does and more, I prefer TLS Maximizer to both and apparently the new Kjaerhus limiter is great too. Take your pick, they're all good.

[iain_morland]

Can I chip back in and ask again about usability, especially of the Waves mastering plugins, not only sound quality?

To quote re: Voxengo Elephant from the gearslutz thread cited above:

the biggest problem for me are the guis, not the look but these plug-ins are really flexible so they have a lot of controls and most engineers hate that(complex controls).

I completely agree with that. He fails to understand how we react to his interface--he knows it so well because he designs the controls and somehow expects us to not see it as confusing.

This is why personally I prefer Waves to Voxengo (and Kjaerhus) and am interested in using Waves for mastering rather than other developers.

I would rather have easy-to-use plugins, of which I can learn the limitations, than complicated plugins with cryptic functions - however flexible they may be.

Flexibility doesn't mean much if the GUI means you can't understand the options and how they interact. This has been my problem with Voxengo in particular.

NB this is offered ONLY as a subjective response to the Voxengo GUI style; I think they are amazing plugins in many other respects, and I admire Aleksey's creativity and brilliant customer service....

...in other words, please no flaming in response to my post!

[IIRs]

But could we use the L3 for an upward compression on the quiet bits? If not, which one would you recommend?

I never used an L3, but I think a compressor would be a better bet for the parallel compression trick. Bob's recommended settings are: threshold nice and low so you squash everything lots, ratio approx 2.5:1, attack as fast as it will go, release approx 250 ms, then use the output gain to mix some of the compressed signal back with the original and control the amount of upward compression.. somewhere between -12dB and -3dB usually works for me.

I'd love to hear what you'd do with it

Something more like this probably.